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Before posting a questions regarding the reliability of a source, please keep in mind that reliability is often dependent upon context. It helps others to respond to questions if you include:

A link to the source in question. For example [ www.webpage.com ] The article in which it is being used. For example [[ article name ]] The exact statement in the article that the source is supporting. For example text Links to relevant talk page discussion. See diffs for an explanation.

While we attempt to give a second opinion and consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not official policy. This is not the place for content disputes which should be directed to the article talk page or associated WikiProject

Shortcuts: Wikipedia:RSN Wikipedia:RS/N Wikipedia:V/N

The guideline that most directly relates to whether a given source is reliable is Identifying reliable sources. The policy that most directly relates is: Verifiability. For questions about the sourcing policy, please go to the Verifiability talk page. If your question is about whether material constitutes original research, please use the No original research notice board. If your question is about undue weight, or other neutral point of view issues please use the NPOV noticeboard.

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Contents 1 Venezuelanalysis Reboot 1.1 Reboot the reboot: Exhibit I 1.2 Use as required reading in university courses 2 KavkazCenter 3 Journal of Genetic Genealogy 3.1 So much for consensus 3.2 In terms of Wikipedia policy please? 3.3 Re-factoring of responses to initial posting 3.4 More formal response to response to re-factored response 3.5 Nature of this discussion and the various conflicts of interest 3.6 How perfect does science need to be? 3.7 The attitude war that never ends 4 www.americanboardofsportpsychology.org 5 Brief Chronicles 6 FitzPatrick & Reynolds, False Profits 7 Quoting an RS source citing non-RS sources 8 Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, Media Research Center, Media Matters for America, Newsbusters 8.1 RFC on Media watchdog groups 8.2 Consistency 8.2.1 Rebuttal 8.2.2 Rebuttal to the Rebuttal 8.3 Consistently include or consistently exclude? 8.4 What about Fox News and MSNBC 9 Times identified as "unreliable" 10 VH1 - sexy scientologists 11 Pubmed search results 12 Scientific article meeting all Wiki requirements rejected as reliable source in the Pedophilia article 13 Film reference 14 Is a media studies book a reliable source for the contents of a news broadcast? 15 Notice of RfC at NPOV: Using the National Science Foundation as a reference at NPOV 16 Open Carry in context outside the United States 17 No bibliography, secondary source 18 East Bay Express 19 Removal of musicianguide.com as a source 20 Sourcewatch 21 IMDB as a source; List of documentary films 22 The Australiasian Journal of Herpetology and the strange case of Sam the Koala 23 Musician Guide 24 DesmogBlog Is not Wikipedia:Rs 25 lalate.com 26 Salon.com 27 Celebheights.com 28 Pan-Arabism 29 Is Medialens Wikipedia:Rs? 30 Christian Newswire / Coptic American Association 31 ofcomswindlecomplaint.net is not Wikipedia:Rs 31.1 ofcomswindlecomplaint.net Reset 32 reliability of Psychology Today 33 Vjosa common female name in Albanian: source is edit-warred 34 IGN's "Pokemon of the Day Chick" 35 Wikipolitique 36 exxonsecrets.org 37 Wikinews... is our consensus outdated? 38 Student academic research paper 39 Ancestry.com 40 Wholesale removal of unreliable references 41 Poptower.com 42 Claps And Boos 43 Using an opinion piece by a controversial journalist as a reliable source regarding Middle Eastern History 44 Unacceptible references (use of blogs) at article Charles Karel Bouley 45 WORLD NET DAILY final answer needed 45.1 Specific case: WND & Mercer 45.2 Specific case: Fluoride in the water/global control crazy conspiracy theories 45.3 Specific case: Swift Vets and POWs for Truth; John Kerry and BLP violations in WND 46 Spartacus 47 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ 48 Humor/satire articles 49 Anarchist publishers can't publish WP:RS? 49.1 Resolved 50 "Professional" biographers 51 Reliability of Baseball In Wartime 52 Wendy Doniger a Sanskritist? 53 Cardiff as a 'primate city' 54 Problematic sourcing in Robert Kennedy in Palestine (1948) 55 Hedd Wyn 56 Non-biblical scholars in Genesis creation myth? 57 Ecco Pro / Compusol / forums 58 Subject's own commercial website? 59 On-Wiki representations 60 quotabletuckermax.com used as a source on Tucker Max 61 Legal Indictments etc 62 Ozfootball.net 63 WorldNetDaily books 64 Worldnetdaily, again 65 starwars.com blog 66 Two separate books report 1990 Nelson Mandela quote 66.1 The current situation 67 Christopher Booker's The Real Global Warming Disaster 68 GULAG statistics 69 Article relating to Gohar Shahi, Younus AlGohar and MFI 69.1 Background SPI and AN/I 69.2 Evidence 70 "Debrett's People of Today" 71 Now Magazine ; Toronto Weekly

Venezuelanalysis Reboot

The issue of the reliability of the website Venezuelanalysis, which has long passed too long, didn't read status above, merits a reboot in an attempt to actually resolve the issue. The site now has its own entry - Venezuelanalysis.com. It is argued that Venezuelanalysis is widely considered reliable, and that it "offers useful detail and analysis on pivotal issues that is unavailable from other media sources," and as such is a necessary complement to other media sources. Any present overuse of VA should be fixed by adding more sources, not removing VA sources.

• Widely referred to in Google Books (200+ hits) [1] and Google Scholar (300+ hits) [2]
• Specific academic views: Analyzing Venezuelan media, Darrell Moen calls it "A major source of non-corporate controlled information regarding the process of social transformation that is occurring in Venezuela ... This website offers critical analyses by dissident scholars and grassroots-based accounts by social activists involved in the various social movements in Venezuela as well as links to a number of alternative media sites and access to documentary videos that depict recent events in Venezuela."^[1]. Writing in New Political Science, Walt Vanderbush calls it "a valuable resource for Venezuelan news and analysis."^[2]
• Endorsed by 4 academics on Venezuelanalysis' "donate" page: [3]. Links to their homepages: Anderson, Grandin, Hellinger. (Ellner's page I can't find; Venezuelan university websites are generally not great.) Ellner and Hellinger are Venezuela specialists (political science); Grandin and Anderson have broader Latin America interests. A book Hellinger and Ellner co-edited (Venezuelan Politics in the Chávez Era: Class, Polarization and Conflict, 2003) was described by Foreign Affairs as "An extremely valuable and balanced overview of Venezuela".[4].
• Ellner's endorsement ("In short, Venezuelanalysis offers useful detail and analysis on pivotal issues that is unavailable from other media sources."[5]) is particularly significant, being a (if not the) leading English-language academic on Venezuelan left politics. Ellner's 1988 book was described by Foreign Affairs as "A well-researched analysis of Venezuela's small but innovative third party..."[6]. In the foreword to that book, Michael Conniff described Ellner as "a leading analyst of Venezuela's left politics"[7] That was in 1988; "Steve Ellner"+Venezuela gets 150+ hits on Google News [8], many from the New York Times and Christian Science Monitor asking Ellner for his opinion on events of the day. He is described in neutral terms such as "a political analyst at Venezuela's Oriente University"[9] Even Fox News described him neutrally as "a political science professor at Venezuela's University of the East."[10]
• Used by Human Rights Watch as a source in its 2008 report [11], and multiple times by UNHCR Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, eg here.
• Lonely Planet: Venezuela deems it "the best English language news site" to "keep track of the country's political and economic affairs."

In the face of this evidence that Venezuelanalysis is widely considered a reliable source, some Wikipedia editors wish to substitute their personal opinion that it is unreliable, because links they allege between the website (the alleged links are weak and the sourcing generally unreliable) and the Venezuelan government allegedly render it unreliable. They also argue that in their opinion the website editors' political views, which differ dramatically from their own, render it unreliable. In addition they argue that those wishing to use VA as a source must prove the site's 8 editors have "journalistic credentials" (whatever that means). (It was generally ignored that I had noted - to suggest that "journalistic credentials" are not everything - that Venezuelan media, formerly one of the most respected presses in Latin America, had after the election of Hugo Chavez become part of the opposition: "media owners and their editors used the news - print and broadcast - to spearhead an opposition movement against Chavez... Editors [...] began routinely winking at copy containing unfounded speculation, rumor, and unchecked facts." Dinges, John. Columbia Journalism Review (July 2005). "Soul Search", Vol. 44 Issue 2, July-August 2005, pp52-8. US media reporting on Venezuela has also been critiqued [12] [13])

In discussing this issue in the RSN thread above, the editors opposing use of VA have introduced irrelevant sources; complained about Wikipedia's Venezuela articles not matching their POV; and made many accusations of bad faith. Since the old thread remains open for any more accusations of bad faith that may be required, as well as any more detours into complaints not relevant to the issue, hopefully this thread can focus on resolving the question: can VA be considered a reliable source? Rd232 ^talk 14:17, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the additional data. I stick with what I said earlier: the site easily meets the minimum threshold of RS, it had best be used for attributed opinion, and where it is used for contentious facts, these facts should also be attributed. (That last point, of course, also applies to other sources.) --JN466 21:54, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

• I will also stick with what I said earlier. Venezuelanalysis meets the minimum threshold of RS, but it is a highly partisan source and opinion site. Since pro-Chavez opinion is a significant viewpoint in Venezuelan politics, we should include the pro-Chavez opinion with attribution. This source must attributed if used, and should not be used for contentious information in BLPs. --Defender of torch (talk) 13:12, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Some of the content on there is opinion. Those we need to attribute to Venezuelanalysis in the text of the article, if we use them. For statements of fact however, it is totally reliable, and nobody has provided any evidence to the contrary (although plenty of evidence has been shown that it is considered reliable by numerous mainstream sources). The New York Times publishes opinions as well, but we don't call it an "opinion paper". Double standard. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. I dislike things that begin to seem like Wikipedia:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT issues after a while. It's a reliable source, my comments from the last thread on this (a week ago) have not changed. I have better things to do than debate this ad-nauseum. Simonm223 (talk) 15:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

This looks like "ask the other parent" to an issue that was already well debated; I suggest that anyone weighing in here not take Rd232's summary at face value, rather re-read the entire previous thread. Venezuelanalysis is funded by Chavez, media in Venezuela is state-controlled, the writers for Venezuelanalysis are highly partisan and affiliated with the Chavez regime, have no journalist credentials, and VenAnalysis is largely cited by the extreme radical left. It has been used on Wiki to source an egregious BLP violation, and its reporting is rarely comprehensive or neutral; the people responsible for it are funded by Chavez and associated with him. VA has a very limited place on Wiki, if any, and people willing to use it as a source often do so to the exclusion of more reliable sources. It rarely covers info that is not available in non-biased mainstream reliable sources, and because it is affiliated with Chavez, should never be used to the exclusion of more reliable sources. I also notice Rd232's several distortions and one-sided presentation of the issues in his new thread here, and am concerned about his tendentious editing in Chavez/Venezuela articles. He states that media owners spearheaded opposition to Chavez, but fails to mention the serious press freedom issues in Venezuela and that the media is state-controlled, by Chavez, and you can be jailed or shut down if you criticize Chavez; if Wiki allows VenAnalysis a larger role here as a source, we become one more arm of Chavez's very successful Venezuela Information Office. We already see Rd232 writing entire articles sourced to the highly partisan VA website, and excluding mainstream views (that alone speaks to the bias of VA as a source). We also now have an unbalanced article Venezuelanalysis.com that uses a tour guide to prop up this partisan website. And I strongly object to this "ask the other parent" reboot, since most people are probably tired of this discussion and considered it settled. Wikipedia:V is a pillar of Wiki; overreliance on VA turns Wiki into another arm of the Chavez PR and propaganda machine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:16, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Sandy, I understand your concern. But at this point, we are helpless because we are yet to find reliable sources which document the Chavista connection of this site, even though we know the persons associated with this site are lackeys of Chavez. This is why I said this site should be used with attribution as an opinion site, and should not be used for sensitive information in BLPs. I agree the article Venezuelanalysis.com is horribly biased and will try to add some information to make it NPOV. --Defender of torch (talk) 16:30, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Chavista connection? I guess only sources that are "anti-Chavista" would be reliable right? -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

This is yet another example of Sandy attempting to derail or shut down dispute resolution (she virtually accuses me of forum shopping on the same forum). She repeats the unsourced and/or irrelevant claims made ad nauseam in the TL:DR thread, which had driven away external input and made an actual resolution of the issue this dispute resolution board is actually for impossible. This summary of the issue is an opportunity to actually settle the question asked. Rd232 ^talk 17:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Also it appears that the above comment, insofar as it has any actual relevance to the question, boils down to the argument that Wikipedia should counter the alleged press freedom issues in Venezuela by excluding a source widely considered reliable - as some sort of political counter-balance. This has the merit at least of being the closest Sandy has come to expressing her motivation on this issue. Rd232 ^talk 17:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed -- there has been no rational reason given for not including it, other than that it is "partisan". All publications are partisan, and of course, that's not really the issue. The editors who keep bringing this up are merely trying to allow partisans that support their POV and remove those that don't.Venezuelanalysis is factually accurate and is considered reliable as a source by numerous mainstream sources (see above). There is really no argument given for it's not being reliable other than that it is "Chavista". 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I have seen no evidence that Venezuelanalysis has a reputation of poor fact checking so it can be used to source uncontroversial facts; uncontroversial understood as not being in conflict with the facts reported by other reliable sources, any conflict with WP editors' opinions is irrelevant. JRSP (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

That's because nobody has provided any, because there isn't any. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I have edited the article Venezuelanalysis.com to make it clear that the site is left wing and pro-Chavez. However I am not sure if my edit will stay. --Defender of torch (talk) 16:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Good for you. Thanks for inserting your POV into the article. The encyclopedia is much better for it now. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like its reliable and biased. Use attribution, and don't use it for super controversial stuff related to Chavez. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:14, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. We need to put enough restrictions on the use of this partisan website, with ties to Chavez, to stop Rd232 from writing entire articles sourced to it to the exclusion of mainstream non-partisan sources, and it should never be used in BLPs or to source contentious claims. It should only be used to support non-contentious information that is not available in other sources (and that means, rarely, since most of anything they report on is available in other sources or highly contentious and dubious). Rd232's editing in Venezuela articles has evidenced extreme tendentiousness, and he has written entire articles sourced largely to VenAnalysis, excluding mainstream sources and a preponderance of reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. I was asked to comment here. [14] I don't think venezuelanalysis.com can be regarded as a reliable source within the sourcing policy, Wikipedia:V. It's what the policy calls a "questionable source": "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves." See Wikipedia:V#Questionable sources.

  It is also a self-published source within the meaning of the policy, in the sense that it seems to have no employees, no bosses, no office, and no formal editorial oversight. It describes itself as "an independent website produced by individuals ... its contributors are all working on the site from their homes in various places in Venezuela, the U.S., and elsewhere in the world." [15]The reliability of individual articles on the site therefore boils down to whether the person who wrote the article is a reliable source within the meaning of the policy. The policy says: "Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." See Wikipedia:V#Self-published sources (online and paper). So each article on the website that's being proposed as a source will have to be examined individually to decide whether the author has previously been published in that field by an independent publication. Then that article could be used with a link to the site as a source. But I would caution against using self-published material for anything contentious, and it can never be used as a source of information about a living person, per V and BLP. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 19:11, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

In view of the range of sources noted at the top of this thread citing it or endorsing it, I do not think it should be considered "self-published"; and I would say that the fact that other sources rely on it matters more than a debatable interpretation of "self-published". It has editorial oversight at least insofar as the 8 individuals listed here [16] are just some of its many contributors. Rd232 ^talk 19:19, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

You've added "widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions." from policy, in support of it being a "questionable source". Citing policy is not enough, it needs to be shown that it applies. The fact that it is relied upon by others (as noted at the top of the thread) suggests that it is not "widely acknowledged as extremist"; and claims that any other part of the policy applies need to be evidenced. Rd232 ^talk 19:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter who relies on it, Rd. What matters is our sourcing policy. The eight people who have may editorial responsibility are unpaid individuals working from home. They're not providing professional editorial and legal oversight, or any kind of fact-checking process. They make this almost a point of pride: we are not professionals, we are just volunteers working from home. Are any of them known experts, do you know? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 19:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wilpert is a professor of political science. It is endorsed by Steve Ellner, whose credentials are noted above, as well as VA being widely cited in academic sources. And what matters is not just the nature of sourcing policy, but arguments on how it applies here. Rd232 ^talk 19:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

All of the people are experts, and it has been subject to fact-checking by editors, like most newspapers. The fact checking is good enough that all of the organizations, professionals/experts, etc listed above and below feel that it is reliable enough to be used as a source. Please provide a single piece of evidence showing that their fact-checking process is not adequate. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

If Gregory Wilpert has previously been published in this field by an independent publication, then self-published articles by him on this website would be allowable within reason, but not for use about living persons. It doesn't matter who endorsed it or who else cites it. We care only about our policies. The point of the sourcing policy is this: if push comes to shove, and we publish some terrible, false and libellous thing, and a court comes to us and says, "Wikipedia, show us your due diligence. Why did you publish this dreadful lie?", we have to be able to point to The New York Times or to Cambridge University Press or to Routledge. We don't want to be pointing to a website that's suddenly disappeared, published from home by eight volunteers, now untraceable. That's not due diligence. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 19:36, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Wot? Legal liability has nothing to do with this (only comes into play for failure to remove specific information). And given the falsehoods published by the NYT (as acknowledged by themselves), as well as by Venezuelan media which despite the Columbia Journalism Review information we're still happy to use, the value of "editorial oversight" and "journalistic credentials" is a lot less than it appears (as evidenced by the external citation of VA). Rd232 ^talk 19:42, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"a website that's suddenly disappeared" applies to a vast proportion of WP sources, actually or potentially. It's mitigated by archive.org and use of WebCite. Rd232 ^talk 19:44, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Legal liability is only part of the story. I am talking about due diligence—morally, legally, intellectually, editorially. And when I talked about the website disappearing, I didn't mean where we couldn't find the article. I meant in a "ships that pass in the night" sense, not a source that has a history, a reputation, that we could rely upon. The bottom line is that you're trying to reinvent the wheel to some extent, because the policy is pretty clear about sources like this. I'm sorry. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 20:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I think Rd232 will also find that if he begins to use more enduring, high-quality reliable sources, he won't have to keep chunking up citation templates with that obnoxious WebCite info, or resorting to archive.org. We don't have to archive The New York Times (Disembrangler=Rd232); I tend to use high-quality enduring sources rather than websites operated out of people's homes that will disappear in a few years, under regime change. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

"We don't have to archive NYT" - I told you in relation to the linked edit that NYT unlimited free access is disappearing in a year, as a result of which some efforts are underway to WebCite key uses of NYT. Do you have a problem with this? And by the by, talking about citation templates as something I "chunk up" suggests you're really not paying attention to my edits: I hate citation templates with a fiery passion and avoid them wherever possible. Rd232 ^talk 02:13, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

On-line links are not required for a printed source like The New York Times. Jayjg^(talk) 23:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• I have been asked to comment about this. You got to love the moral ambiguity and circularity of argumentation of Rd232. Venezuelanalysis is reliable, among other things, because HRW mentioned it in a report the very spinmeister of the site, a.k.a. Gregory Wilpert, protested for allegedly not having followed academic standards. But Rd232, as far as it remains known, lacking any credentials on Venezuelan studies or indeed international law, called the report he now uses as proof as "biased and manipulative". Worth of note also, the fact that said HRW report also quoted me, to which Wilpert et al reacted by saying, without providing a shred of academic evidence, that I was a mentally unstable opposition blogger. My exchange with Chomsky demonstratetd that none of them had any evidence to support such spurious arguments. Rd232 calls tenuous the Gaceta Oficial de Venezuela, for those ignorant on the topic the official gazette where all legislation, appointments, etc, need be published BEFORE reaching legal and official status. This debate is a joke. Rd232, his alter ego and JRSP, have a notorious track record of utterly biased and tendentious editing in pages relates to Chavez and Venezuela. They give far too much weight to the radical left, to obscure academics that lack peer reviewed publications related to Venezuela, while ignoring reputed left sources, such as NYT, BBC, etc., or indeed, HRW, when these report on the horrendous crisis Venezuela is undergoing. I declare myself out of this, there is no good faith here. Venezuela/Chavez related entries are nothing but a crude exercise in propaganda, and I will go as far as stating my belief that there is a connection between the editors in question and chavista propaganda efforts. Otherwise, how else can their attitude be explained?--Alekboyd (talk) 20:07, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

So, all editors who don't put out anti-Chavez propaganda are "chavista propagandists"? Kind of like how any source that isn't wholly critical of Chavez is a "partisan, left-wing opinion site"? -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• • • Also, obviously and unsurprisingly misleading. For example the criticism of HRW's report involved 118 academics. And I did not specifically call the Gaceta tenuous, I called the whole argument which relies on Gaceta as source for part of it tenuous. And if Alek thinks it is not significant that HRW cited VenezuelanRd232 ^talk 20:58, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
      • I did actually say in the opening post of this thread that "the old thread remains open for any more accusations of bad faith that may be required". Obviously, anyone who disagrees with you must be a paid propagandist! Only possible explanation! For the record, I joined WP in October 2004, becoming an admin in October 2005. I made a few edits to Hugo Chavez (the centre of the Venezuela disputes, so I've checked the history for that article) for the first time in summer 2005; 3 in 2006 (including a vandalism rollback), zero in 2007 and 2008 (OK, I was mostly absent from mid-2006 to early 2009 - but it's a hell of a way to collect a paycheck, doncha think??). In any case, as Soxred's tool and some careful thumbing through my history shows (especially pre-2009, when I seemed to get a lot more involved with Venezuela), Venezuela is just one of many topics I've edited, and only a relatively small proportion of my edits (especially on the edit side rather than the talking - reams of talking here). Rd232 ^talk 20:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• It's a deep plot :) But the circular reasoning employed by Rd232 is utterly astounding, but not apparent to other editors who might not be as familiar with Venezuela and its issues with lack of press freedom and control of the judiciary. He's virtually begging us to let him use VenAnalysis (why the urgency, I wonder?), while decrying other mainstream reliable sources as "corporate" or "US" or "UK" biased, and making claims about the Venezuelan press-- which has been severely muzzled by Chavez. From what I've seen of his editing-- creating quite a few POV articles-- Rd232 seems to think VA is the only reliable source on Venezuela. Considering its connections to Chavez, that is very interesting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 7 Februay 2010 (UTC)

• One last comment: It is not true that UNHCR has used Venezuelanalysis as a source in multiple ocassions, as RD232 misleading and deceitfully argues. Rather it has posted reports from the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, which has cited Venezuelanalysis in some of its writings. This is a quintessential example of the quality of editing, objectivity and fact checking that Rd232 brings to Wikipedia. In said report the Venezuela Information Office, and the International Journal of Socialist Renewal (in reference to comments from the Australian-Venezuela Solidarity Network) can also be seen. Does that mean that VIO and clueless Australian activists from the 'solidarity network' meet Wikipedia:RS standards? I think not. Same goes for Rd232 statement about Ellner being the leading English-language leftist academic of Venezuela, because some obscure and totally unrelated to Venezuela academic had said so once.--Alekboyd (talk) 20:47, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• , My bad. It so much weakens the case for it as a source that the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, "Canada's largest independent administrative tribunal",[17] used it as a source. As for your comments about Ellner - you clearly read my post enough to dismiss Michael Conniff's view of him, so why do you ignore 150+ cites in Google News, many from sources like NYT quoting him? Rd232 ^talk 20:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
• Cheap shot to mention the VIO citation when it is relied on purely for the number of people elected in the 2008 elections. Even you can't find something objectionable about that. Rd232 ^talk 21:03, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

• 99.9999% of the comments on this topic here have absolutely no relationship the question of whether this source meets our reliable source guideline. Please stop cluttering up this page with this off-topic ideological dispute. Dlabtot (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
  • This is exactly why I started a new section (and complained at ANI when the same thing happened as before). Rd232 ^talk 21:13, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Um, but that didn't prevent you from starting this very thread with your ideological distortion, did it ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Case in point. Don't address the content issue with relevant sources or arguments, just attack other contributors with vague accusations. It's a surefire way to make sure nobody else will want to comment on the content issue. Rd232 ^talk 02:16, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
        • Yes, other than personal attacks and rheotoric, I haven't seen any evidence that it's not a reliable site. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Where is the quid pro quo here? If we agree that a Chavez-biased source can be used, why can't the Washington Post or NY Times, normally recognized as left-wing biased publications, be used? Only because they publish what is accurate about Venezuela?

BTW, Wikipedia:AGF also says, "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of contrary evidence." We have seen a lot of "contrary evidence IMO." Student7 (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Where does the claim come from that these sources cannot be used? The issue is treating these (indeed, any) sources as Gospel. Different sources should be used - the issue here is the attempt to suppress VA - the repeated and unfounded claims that criticisms of other sources imply a blanket unwillingness to ever use them are ludicrous. Rd232 ^talk 02:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Post/NYT "normally recognized as left-wing biased publications"? Even by US standards, that just isn't true. Of course rightwingers would, and do claim this (and they point mostly to op-eds, which is irrelevant - it's the news reporting that's the issue). Rd232 ^talk 02:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's analysis is correct, and I appreciate her more thorough review. The website is essentially a Wikipedia:SPS, and has to be treated as such. Its political views, and whether or not various professors write a laudatory paragraph for the website, are both irrelevant. Jayjg^(talk) 23:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I have to disagree with SlimVirgin's analysis. I see little basis for classifying it as a questionable source. The website could be considered a Wikipedia:SPS, though this is not perfectly clear, but that does not preclude it from being considered a reliable source, even if it is not published by well-known experts. Frequently enough sites even more clearly self published, by obscurer individuals, have been judged to be RS's here at Wikipedia:RS/N based mainly on their citation by and reputation described in definitely reliable sources. This is more important and has more to do with interpretation of the Wikipedia:V policy and the Wikipedia:RS guideline than with this particular source. Some of the issues were just inconclusively debated here; I didn't have the time to contribute before that was archived, I think the subject should be reopened at WT:V.John Z (talk) 08:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Which parts of Wikipedia:V and Wikipedia:RS are you using to make that assessment? Jayjg^(talk) 01:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree it is Wikipedia:SPS – although a number of the people involved are previously published experts, and they are exercising informal editorial control over contributions from others. --JN466 22:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Replying to Jayjg: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Usage_by_other_sources and Wikipedia:SPS. This usage by other sources section was written precisely to cover the situation of often self-published sources widely quoted, cited, reviewed or used by clearly reliable sources, but which may be difficult to analyze in other ways. It was (re)inserted in the guideline after the case of boxofficeindia.com at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 13#Boxofficeindia.com which was such a source on the Indian film industry. Since then, other such websites have had a clear consensus on their reliability here based (mainly) on such evidence, most frequently in the case of military history sites often run by amateurs - if such sites are so good that dozens of academic or reputably published books cite them, it can be arbitrary and artificial for Wikipedia to exclude them.John Z (talk) 06:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The problem with Wikipedia:RS is that it is a guideline, and people have a bad habit of editing it so that it no longer conforms with Wikipedia:V (a policy), specifically for the purpose of allowing them to use non-reliable sources. And because it is watched less closely, these changes often stick for a while. That's why the RS guideline has a bold statement in the first paragraph: In the event of a contradiction between this page and the policy, the policy takes priority, and this page should be updated to reflect it. Jayjg^(talk) 16:21, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Right, and all of the facts in Venezuelanalysis seem to be verifiable and accurate to me, so what's the problem? It seems to meet the criteria in both Wikipedia:V and Wikipedia:RS-- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Reboot the reboot: Exhibit I

Exhibit I, since people have been asking for examples, which I just happened across while looking into the curiously orphaned article, Corruption in Venezuela, whose original content seems to have gone desaparecido and orphaned. This VenAnalysis report is used to source a completely biased accounting there of the cases of Manuel Rosales and Raul Baduel (and others). Since I have cleaned up Rosales, and done a wee bit of work on Baduel, I invite those participating in this discussion to compare this VA article with the reliable sources listed at Rosales and Baduel, see if they think VenAnalysis has presented both sides of the story. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I went and checked the original article and copied two paragraphs not moved when Corruption in Venezuela was spun off. One mentions corruption in a general context of crime; the other based solely on ...er... Venezuelanalysis.[18] Well anyway there it is. I can still userfy if you want to check anything else. And do you not agree that it's more useful to the reader to have the content in Corruption in Venezuela than hidden away in a subsection of Criticism of Hugo Chavez? Rd232 ^talk 15:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

How typical of Sandy to insinuate instead of clearly stating the supposed problem. The only substantive difference I can see between the current version and the old version, in terms of the paragraph where Venezuelanalysis is used as a source is that Sandy has added "He is in prison, for an investigation ordered by Chavez, awaiting trial" sourced to a newspaper source which [19] relies heavily on opposition journalist Roberto Giusti's opinion (find-in-page here about his take on journalistic ethics). Despite that, the source doesn't obviously support the specific claim that "Chavez ordered the investigation", which is ironic in view of Sandy's crusade to strengthen policy requirements to provide foreign language quotes in articles to back up their use. Elsewhere Sandy for some reason is deleting content sourced to Venezuelanalysis with nothing more than a claim of "bias"[20]. Rd232 ^talk 08:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

There are two camps in Venezuela. Similar to what we see in the States. As Wikipedia is more liberal it is not surprising that it has a liberal bent as apposed to a conservative one. I think Venezuela analysis is a sufficiently reliable source to use of Wikipedia. The fact that it is released under a creative commons license is a plus. If there are other sources that disagree add them to provide balance. On Wikipedia we are not attempting to match this paper but create something better. Hopefully no page will be based on a single source / single opinion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:37, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

There are two, and more, camps everywhere. At stake in this discussion, is not whether to turn Wikipedia into National Review Online, but rather to stop using a source that beyond reference by some radicals, has been given far too much weight by Rd232, his alter ego Disembrangler and JRSP over the years. Take for instance the entry Human Rights Venezuela, and how the opinion of Gregory Wilpert, editor in chief of Venezuelanalysis, sociologist, married to Hugo Chavez's Consul in NY, funded by Venezuelan taxpayer money, is provided as balance to a 230 page odd report produced by one of the world's most respected, and liberal BTW, human rights NGOs: Human Rights Watch. Now to some around here that seems perfectly kosher, to those of us who know who Wilpert is, it is crystal clear that his opinion, as much as he's entitled to publish it in his propaganda rag, carries no weight whatsoever in the debate about whether or not human rights are systematically violated in Venezuela. Wilpert has no credentials to participate in such debate, and has been described by HRW, rightly so, as "unhelpful critics who opt instead to disseminate baseless allegations" link. The Inter American Court of Human Rights has ruled against the Chavez regime in a number of occasions, Amnesty International keeps warning the regime about the dangers of disrespecting supra constitutional and inalienable rights, yet Wikipedia visitors of the entry are meant to take the opinion of an utterly discredited propagandist on an equal footing as that of HRW. So I'll go with SlimVirgin, Jayjg, SandyGeorgia, Defender of Torch, Student7 opinions and stress that Venezuelanalysis should only be used for stuff that can't be found anywhere else, and has to be properly identified as a propaganda rag of Hugo Chavez's ever growing media empire.--Alekboyd (talk) 20:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Just so one does not get to carried away one can say the exact same thing about Fox News / Rupert Murdock. His media empire is even a little bit larger :-) I remember seeing this clip [21] were Fox had on someone who called for Chavez to be murdered. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Comparing a military putschist cum president of a nation to a businessman, however much hated, does your position no good whatsoever. This debate is not about whether Murdoch has a bigger media empire, but about using as trustworthy a source riddled with conflicts of interest, and with far too many connections to a military regime.--Alekboyd (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Stepping over the red herring of Murdoch, I'd have to say I agree with Alekboyd. VA is a reliable, but biased, source. It can be used as a source for simple questions of positive fact if no other source is available, but should be avoided entirely if other sources (such as HRW) address a question. It is also not reliable for negative facts (did not, never, etc.) Note that even in cases where laying out a he-said-she-said debate is appropriate, the pro-Chavez position should be sourced to something more official. Homunq (talk) 17:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Exactly, for statements of fact there is absolutely no problem with using it. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Use as required reading in university courses

I've noticed that the site is included in required reading lists and bibliographies for courses at a number of universities. The following list (by no means exhaustive) provides some examples:

• Harvard University: Required reading.
• University of California, Santa Barbara. Listed in course bibliography. Quote: "http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/. This website is dedicated to critical news coverage and analyses of events in Venezuela and in particular regarding the Bolivarian revolution."
• University of Pittsburgh: Reading list (twice)
• University of Colorado, Boulder: Reading list
• De Paul University: Reading list
• Cornell University: Reading list
• Evergreen State College: listed 18 times in course reading list

I would think that tends to affirm RS status. At any rate, it clearly has some considerable academic standing. --JN466 22:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

It depends what we want to use it for. Are we agreed that it's a self-published source? If yes, it can't be used as a source about living people. As for using it elsewhere, the dichotomy is this: if we want to use it to support material that's published somewhere else too, why not use that other source? But if we use it for something that doesn't appear elsewhere, then we have to ask ourselves why that website is the sole source. So either way, I can't think of a situation where I'd feel happy using it, unless the issue was so uncontentious that it barely needed a source at all. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 10:58, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I am doubtful. Your argument could be made to exclude any source: "If it's only in this book, then why should we use it?" If it is a book that is widely cited by scholars (as venezuelanalysis is), and it has enough standing to be used as a means of instruction in universities, then excluding it from Wikipedia seems to me to result in a different standard for inclusion than the one the most reputable actors in the real world are applying. Cf. Wikipedia:Rs#Usage_by_other_sources. --JN466 11:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

My argument is indeed often used to exclude self-published sources. If something appears only in an SPS, and it's a contentious point, what does that tell us? We have no way of knowing how to proceed. Do you agree that it's an SPS, or are you also challenging that? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 12:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Just as a general point, there is no way that the use of something as required reading automatically makes it a reliable source. For instance, there are courses on cult archaeology that have some dreadful stuff as required reading -- there must be lots of courses in other fields that ask students to read what we would call unreliable sources to demonstrate the way such sources mislead/misrepresent etc. Dougweller (talk) 12:10, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As a general point, you are of course quite right. You can find university courses asking students to read all kinds of unreliable sources for illustrative purposes. But I looked at the course outlines in that light. I've read the papers included in the Harvard reading list; their messages broadly match each other (and the official analysis of the referendum by the Carter Center). So it's not like one paper is set off against the other. In the Evergreen State College case, a full third of the entire reading list is articles on venezuelanalysis.com. The University of California course outline simply includes the site in its supplemental bibliography; no qualifier. --JN466 13:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Rs#Usage_by_other_sources and Wikipedia:SPS we accept even self-published sources as reliable sources if they are routinely cited for fact by reliable sources, or if they are published by previously published experts. Both of these apply here.

Jay, sorry to interrupt your post, but the first part of your sentence is a misreading of both those sections. Bear in mind too that V is the policy, so even if RS did say that about self-published sources, it should be removed, but it doesn't. We accept self-published sources if they are acknowledged experts on the topic of the article, who have been previously published in that field by independent reliable sources. None of that applies to the people who run that website, as I recall. And we never accept them, expert or not, as sources about living people. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 14:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

As for whether the site is a SPS in the first place, I was swayed earlier by your argument about it being SPS. Looking into it more closely, I confess I now tend to lean the other way. It is clearly not a private website or blog. The site itself says "Venezuelanalysis.com is a project of Venezuela Analysis, Inc., which is registered as a non-profit organization in New York State and of the Fundación para la Justicia Económica Global, which is a foundation that is registered in Caracas, Venezuela." It is the joint website of these research foundations, and employs an editorial team of internationally published scholars. That, combined with its scholarly reception, makes me think it's okay. --JN466 14:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

When I last looked at it, it said it was run by a group of people from their homes. They were named, and they weren't scholars that I recall. And it has no employees. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 14:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

The editorial team work for these foundations. I'll research all the editors and put up what I find here.

• Gregory Wilpert is "a former US Fulbright scholar in Venezuela, and is currently [2002] doing independent research on the sociology of development". Books by Gregory Wilpert, google scholar. As "Greg Wilpert: [22], [23], [24].
• Eva Golinger is a widely published Venezuelan-American writer and attorney and the author of several books on Chavez: google news, google scholar, google books, books by her. --JN466 14:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• According to this book which he co-wrote, Michael Fox is not a scholar, but "a journalist, a reporter, and a documentary filmmaker based in South America." Here it says he is a "former staff-writer for Venezuelanalysis.com". --JN466 15:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Federico Fuentes is described as an "author, journalist and political activist". The article also says he "is actively involved in the Australia-Venezuela Solidarity Network, of which he was a national co-convenor (2008-9), and has organized several solidarity delegations to Venezuela. He is also a member of the Socialist Alliance (Australia)." Elsewhere it is said he is "a frequent writer for the Australian socialist newspaper, Green Left Weekly, and maintains the blog Bolivia Rising". Google News: [25], Google Scholar: [26] --JN466 16:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Jan Kühn appears to be a German student of history and sociology, studying in Berlin and Caracas, as well as working as a translator and in "independent media". Not anyone with any academic track record. --JN466 15:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Same for Tamara Pearson: "Tamara Pearson is an Australian activist and writer as well as a member of the Australian-Venezuela Solidarity Network. She currently lives in Venezuela." --JN466 15:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• No evidence that James Suggett is significantly published outside VA.com: [27]. --JN466 15:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• Kiraz Janicke is described as "a member of the Green Left Weekly Caracas bureau", "a Resistance member who has been based in Venezuela for the last 12 months", "a participant in the first Australia-Venezuela Solidarity Brigade" etc. --JN466 15:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

So the editorial team looks like 2 or 3 people with a notable track record (albeit decidedly left-leaning/alternative, judging by their publishers), and some minor players. Golinger's two main books are held by 419 and 221 libraries respectively; which is sort of respectable, but there are definitely more widely held bios on Chavez. --JN466 15:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

• After all that research, you did not find that Eva Golinger just got $3.2 million from the Chavez regime to carry on with her propaganda activities in Correo del Orinoco? Neither did you find out that Gregory Wilpert is married to Chavez's Consul in NY? The foundation Wilpert registered in NY, using his home address, is just a silly attempt to make the site look more reputable. Listen folks, the issue of Venezuelanalysis.com is not about them being liberal or leaning to the left. Rather it is a semi-official propaganda rag, funded by the Venezuelan State, whose main voices are deeply involved with the Chavez regime, professionally, and personally. So stop this BS about Harvard reading list and start looking at thing from a more objective point of view, for none of the people that contribute to the site is an authoritative source on anything other than chavista propaganda.--Alekboyd (talk) 17:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Even just looking at the Harvard page I get the impression that the site is being presented not as a reliable source from which students are expected to derive facts, but as one of a number of competing analyses that students are going to be comparing. Also, note that the very next reading on the list is a Wikipedia article. Clearly, being on a course syllabus like this does not imply that a source is reliable in the Wikipedia sense. —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Addressed above. Note that the paper's conclusions about the 2004 referendum match those of the Carter Center and the US government. --JN466 14:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm curious as to why this one website has been getting so much attention. Can someone point to an example of an edit that relies on it that couldn't otherwise be made? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs}

It's been getting so much attention because it is apparently broadly pro-Chavez. The people on it are seen by conservative commentators as propagandists for Chavez. There have been several attempts here on WP to link people on the site to the Venezuelan state-funded Venezuela Information Office (for example, there was an edit war in our article on the site about inserting the – tenuous – info that VIO once wrote to Golinger asking her for help). Clearly, some or all of the people writing on Venezuelanalysis.com are socialists or at least liberals. At the same time, some of the editors arguing forcefully against any use of Venezuelanalysis.com have proposed the inclusion of material sourced to sources like Discoverthenetworks.org. I am concerned about throwing out sources that have scholarly credibility because the authors may have socialist or liberal leanings. --JN466 14:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you there, but it's not clear there are scholars involved. The volunteers who run the site are Federico Fuentes, Michael Fox, Eva Golinger, Kiraz Janicke, Jan Kühn, Tamara Pearson, James Suggett, Gregory Wilpert. [28] Are any of them academics? And can you give an example of the kind of edits it has been used to support? SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 14:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I've posted what details I found on the editorial team above. Of course the site hosts articles by other writers as well. In the Evergreen State College course, which makes most use of the site (and describes it as "Good writing about contemporary Venezuelan developments, links to other good sources. Extensive archive. Co-founded by Greg Wilpert."), about half the articles are by members of the editorial team, and the other half by outside authors. The one that they include at Harvard is co-authored by Mark Weisbrot, who is a notable economist and columnist for The Guardian. I'll have a look how and where the site has been used. --JN466 16:22, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking over the list, it doesn't appear that they are generally what Wikipedia would consider to be experts in the subject; that is, they're lawyers, activists, filmmakers, etc. A university may have many reasons why it would want its students to read the views of these people, but university courses aren't encyclopedia articles, nor do their curricula have our sourcing requirements. Jayjg^(talk) 16:26, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Having researched the team's credentials, I was less impressed than I thought I was going to be. ;) The site is currently cited on 200+ WP pages: [29]. About 115 of those are articles in mainspace. --JN466 16:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Having gone through this exercise, I can't fault SlimVirgin's analysis above, posted at 19:11, 7 February 2010. In particular, it seems more than likely from the affiliations of the people involved that the site does have a promotional agenda. That does not mean everything on it is bad or invalid; as SlimVirgin said earlier, we should look at the credentials of each individual author whose writings are hosted there, and base our decision on that. Thanks for your input. --JN466 17:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I would say that self-published articles by the two published authors, Wilpert and Golinger, can be used, though according to V and BLP, they can't be used as sources on living people, and that includes Chavez, even though he's one of the issues it seems they specialize in. But for general political issues in that country, articles with their byline on that website could be used as sources. Fox, I'm not so sure of—his contributions to that book probably don't amount to an acknowledged expertise. SlimVirgin ^{TALK contribs} 17:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. :) Where their guest authors are reputable, like Weisbrot etc., those articles could be used as well. And Wilpert and Golinger have written books on Chavez; these would obviously fine to use (in moderation, given that they are somewhat left of mainstream) if someone wanted to use them as sources on him. --JN466 20:49, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Having expended more than enough energy on this issue, I'm staying out of it. However I will correct the error introduced above by relying on the Harvard reading list: the source given for the Mark Weisbrot contribution is "Black swans..." [30], which is a straight re-publication of the CEPR paper here: [31]. Weisbrot hasn't written for VA, as far as I know; but seemingly is quite liberal in allowing republication by anyone that wants. Rd232 ^talk 22:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Was busy and did not see this continued discussion. I disagree very strongly with some statements above on the principles of reliability, something much more important than their particular application here. Wikipedia:SPS does not clearly restrict usage of self-published sources only to those written by previously published experts. This is reading an "only when" in Wikipedia:SPS where there is only a "when". It would be the natural idiomatic reading if there were no other general means of establishing reliability, but there are - usage by and statements in clearly reliable sources. Here is a recent discussion at WT:V. The policy has varied on this point, sometimes making it clear that "previously published expert" is only one example, sometimes as discussed last month, explicitly including a "usage by other sources" section. Citation and reputation has often enough been considered decisive evidence for reliability here at Wikipedia:RSN.

Of course we must define reliability here, as best we can. But we should try to keep our definition of "reliable source" as close as possible to the ordinary meaning in the relevant intellectual community. I wrote the "usage by other sources" section in Wikipedia:RS, with the support of and following the lead of User:Relata refero, and with Jayen466's and others' constructive criticism. The clear intent and consensus at the time was indeed to recognize sources, including self-published ones, as reliable sources, if that is what the relevant intellectual community considers them, and no real conflict with Wikipedia:SPS was perceived.

As I said, the impetus behind this section in Wikipedia:RS was the case of boxofficeindia.com. After a long debate at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 13#Boxofficeindia.com there was a consensus it was a reliable SPS. One redoubtable editor put it back then as "if it's being used as a source by the mainstream media, it should be okay for us" and felt that the meaning of Wikipedia:SPS "could be stretched in this case to include being used as a source for other publications, because the material isn't contentious."[32]John Z (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Agreed -- SPS's can be considered reliable when they are written by experts and widely considered reliable by experts and mainstream sources. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 01:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

KavkazCenter

Is this a reliable source? In my eyes of-course not if you look at the header of this website you will see some of the most cruel terrorist of the world who committed a lot of terroristic acts around the world. http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/ But a lot of wikipedia articles rely on this source.
A short quote of an article:
"At least 3 US 'invaders were killed and another 3 injured during gun battles in which the enemy coalition forces were forced to retreat, said the report, adding a bomb tore apart a US invaders tank while trying to flee from the certain areas, killing the US invaders who were on board."
And Headlines such: "Clarification of the invaders propaganda in Afghanistan" http://www.kavkaz.org.uk/eng/content/2010/01/31/11329.shtml

well, from an Afghani POV, the US forces are "invaders"... and to the Taliban they are definitely the "enemy". Just as a US source might call the taliban the "enemy". The question is... rhetoric asside, does the source have a reputation for accuracy on the underlying facts? If not, then it should probably be limited to statements as to what the Taliban POV is. Blueboar (talk) 20:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

We have a page about this site, Kavkaz Center. It published numerous statements by Chechen rebels during Chechen wars and still publishes interview with people like Doku Umarov. It is reliable in the sense that interviews with Doku Umarov (or earlier with people like Aslan Maskhadov or Basayev) are indeed their interviews. It can be used as a Wikipedia:RS in this regard. During wars, they also reported losses on the Chechen side, and such reports can be regarded as official reports of losses by the Chechen side (which does not mean that their numbers are the "truth", just as numbers by any other combatants). However, any claims by the Kavkaz Center about their "sworn enemies" like Russians are hardy reliable and should be used with care.Biophys (talk) 20:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Apart from Islamist press releases and as a gauge of ISlamist thinking, no YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:09, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

There's no indication of significant editorial oversight or a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Regarding the content, here's a story I picked off their front page just now: I think that pretty much sums it up. Jayjg^(talk) 20:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

But the people have indeed been killed, and it does not matter if one calls them "puppets", "munafiqs" or how.Biophys (talk) 04:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Well and an other article of this page Sure ... --Saiga 14:46, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

That's a quote from a different website quoted by Kavkaz Center. The site isn't used on wikipedia for links on Afghanistan anyway so that's not very relevant. It's used to post statements from rebels in the northern caucasus with which it has direct contact. Grey Fox (talk) 17:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Kavkazcenter is a mouthpiece for extremists in the North Caucasus. As far as facts and figures go, there is no editorial oversight or fact checking whatsoever, and for good reason since their intention is not to report an accurate and unbiased depiction of events, but to promote a cause. LokiiT (talk) 02:34, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

They certainly have an editorial oversight, but it matters who was the editor. The site was popular and much better in 1999-2002, but it is in the state of decline right now. To summarize, this is site of Chechen rebels, and it can be used as RS only about Chechen rebels.Biophys (talk) 04:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

• More important, if BBC uses this site as source [33], why we can not? Biophys (talk) 20:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Because it has no reputation for editorial oversight or fact checking. The BBC's policies for inclusion are not Wikipedia's. Jayjg^(talk) 01:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

But anything reprinted by the BBC is good per our rules: [34]. Right? I am asking because many other mainstream media also make a reference to Kavkaz Center. Biophys (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to be personal. But you Biophys provide a lot of terroristic and extremism thinking in your wikipedia contributes. --Saiga 00:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

No, not "anything reprinted by the BBC is good per our rules", which say nothing of the kind. Jayjg^(talk) 23:44, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

I only mean that BBC can be quoted with appropriate attribution. Same about 686 books that quote Kavkaz Center (see link by Greyfox below). Many of these books qualify as "academic sources". Seriously, I do not think that our WP:RS rules should be more strict than rules used in academic publications. If they quote KavkazCenter (on the North Caucasus topics and with appropriate attribution), we can do the same.Biophys (talk) 16:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Kavkazcenter has been posted more often on WP:RS (and always survived) by people who are bitter about conflict. The site is indeed an extremis propaganda website, but always had ties with caucasian forces during both chechen wars. It has released images, videos, interviews, attacks, burials and also figures of casualties on both sides. Of course their numbers should be taken with a grain of salt, but they aren't less accurate than casualty figures reported by the russian press (often known for being propaganda figures as well). Kavkazcenter has been quoted by thousands of news tabloids [35] many times over, including the major ones. The same goes for books [36]. As long as their statements are attributed as something like "according to the radical kavkazcenter website" it's fine to use it on subjects related to the conflict in the northern caucasus (not afghanistan or iraq). Just as news tabloids as well as wikipedia articles also quote statements by Taliban leaders or even Al-Qaeda leaders as well as statements by pkk leaders or other rebel formations. I also think that anyone who accuses someone of spreading "terrorist propaganda" or calling anyone a "terrorist lover" (such as here [37]) should be blocked or warned for personal attacks because those accusations are highly provocative and polarizing. Grey Fox (talk) 15:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Journal of Genetic Genealogy

JOGG seems to be a zine for genealogy hobbyists, albeit with upmarket "academic" aspirations. As has been pointed out (JOGG was mentioned once before on this board, but not discussed), JOGG is an outlet for non-geneticists, and even non-scientists, to publish research that may not be acceptable to established scientific journals. (quote: "The main emphasis of this journal will be to present a forum for articles that may not be appropriate for other established genetics journals since they may be based on datasets in which a statistically random sample cannot be guaranteed (i.e. surname studies).") Further, only one person in their entire staff (Editor, Associate Editors and Editorial Board) has credentials in genetics. So, even though there is a "peer-review" system, JOGG is clearly a journal for hobbyists. The quesion therefore is to what extent, and for what kind of material, could JOGG be considered a reliable source in subjects pertaining to genetics? What is acceptable to cite, or to quote, or to incorporate?

In particular, is the content of a research paper -- a primary source -- suitable for inclusion in a WP article when it is clearly original, i.e. not treated in any of the usual reliable academic sources, such as articles in high-impact journals by established experts? This goes beyond cases of Wikipedia:REDFLAG to apparently "reasonable" ideas which may not have been covered yet in the regular outlets, i.e. are in the nature of Wikipedia:OR with respect to the established literature. rudra (talk) 22:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It is in no way a reliable source. The current editor is "a student at the Syracuse University College of Law where he is studying intellectual property law", with no background in genetics. The past editor was "a retired physicist" with the F.D.A.

The editorial board consists of

• "a retired engineering manager who earned his MBA in mid-career",
• "an attorney in private practice specializing in family law",
• "a Professor of Chemistry at the University of Illinois"
• a "Coordinator of Reference Services at the University of Houston M.D. Anderson Library" with a degree in law, and
• and someone who "received her undergraduate degree in biology in 1964 and her M.D. from Stanford University in 1970".

The associate editors are

• an economist with the World Health Organization with "a Ph.D and M.A. in economics from Clark University, MA, and a License-Doctorandus degree in economics from the Catholic University in Leuven (KUL, Belgium)."
• an "Associate Professor of Mathematics and Computer Science at Memorial University of Newfoundland", and
• a retired "research geneticist", the only person with a genetics education or profession.

It is a hobby journal, for non-geneticists who like to play geneticist on the internet. Jayjg^(talk) 02:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

So, citing (an article in) JOGG cannot save material from being Wikipedia:OR, because the requirements of proper attribution are not being met. That's basically what I wanted to confirm. Thanks. rudra (talk) 17:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

I depends on the JOGG article. Some are really quite poor, while a few have been noted by geneticists. In all likelihood the current complaint somehow involves the recent pair of articles by Klyosov, which though of some value are overreaching and unreliable. It's fine to cite most JOGG articles for their samples and basic results, and ignore their conclusions. We do the same thing with many properly 'academic' conclusions/speculations in multi-authored peer-reviewed studies. Professional geneticists themselves tend to make uninformed conclusions on language spread, archaeological cultures, and peoples. DinDraithou (talk) 19:08, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

That's right, and people put those uninformed conclusions in our articles and then argue that the journal article is a reliable source - which is true only to the extent the author is working within their area of expertise. I was waiting for someone to say that it depends on the article, that's what I've been told when I asked. User:Dougweller (talk)

Just to make sure it is not ignored, I have asked Doug below for examples of the JOGG being involved in such cases.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:03, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It isn't just bad, it's worse. They do it for the attention (and possibly for the funding that attention might garner). This is an open secret. The effects have been singularly disastrous for the noxious mess posing as research on what R-M17 might have to do with Indo-European languages and/or "peoples". It has seriously compromised the integrity of academic research in India (where the barely concealed agenda now of all ostensible "research" is actually the seriously political business of "proving" that all Indians have been in India since time out of mind.) In fact, this entire "deep ancestry" field is a crock, a cottage industry founded on and sustained by geneticists pronouncing on subjects outside their competence (linguistics, archaeology, anthropology, sociology, ancient history, whatever.) None of this has been critiqued, because no secondary, evaluative literature exists. It's all primary source, and it's all blather. All the more reason to apply WP policies strictly and disallow marginal sources. rudra (talk) 20:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

JOGG really can't be cited for anything, not even "their samples and basic results". I suppose, if pushed, one could treat articles on it as self-published sources; that is to say, if a real geneticist published an article there, one could treat it as if he or she had published it on his or her blog. Jayjg^(talk) 01:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that's an extreme position. Personally I trust what they publish at JOGG more than I trust anyone associated with Oxford, e.g. Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, also Spencer Wells. Their sort are the real problem. DinDraithou (talk) 01:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

In a scientific context, a reliable source would have to show its contributors are established experts in that area, with appropriate academic publications and credentials, and/or citations by other scientific publications. They could also be journalists reviewing published scientific work. But in general, a source which consists of amateurs could not be used to present scientific information. Crum375 (talk) 02:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

While you may personally trust JOGG, that doesn't make it qualify in any way as a reliable source. That's not "extreme", it's just the way the Wikipedia:V policy works. Jayjg^(talk) 03:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the Wikipedia:SPS exception, but it needs to be used sensibly. Klyosov has already been mentioned; that's a good case. He is a biochemist/molecular biologist, so depending on his specializations he could know plenty about genetics, but still he is not an established geneticist (i.e., it is not what he is known and noted for in the academic literature). Therefore, in JOGG he is jut another hobbyist, and to cite or use his material (on time depths of haplotype diversity) is some combination of Wikipedia:OR, Wikipedia:UNDUE and perhaps Wikipedia:REDFLAG. rudra (talk) 04:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not say I trust 'it', just not Oxford at the moment. Of course what you say about policy is right but you also need to need to have read an article or two from the journal to make sure 'they' are actually contradicting whatever it happens to be. I'm not getting that sense regularly. In fact many of the articles they publish are in unexplored areas, and can derive from the results of legitimate haplogroup projects under FTDNA and other companies, of which the authors are sometimes the managers and leaders. This is why we can generally trust their results but are safest ignoring any speculative conclusions, which again can be found anywhere. DinDraithou (talk) 04:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

No, actually, you don't need to read any articles on the site, in order to ensure they are "contradicting" something. It is a hobby website produced by non-geneticists. Therefore we cannot "generally trust their results" regarding genetics; not their samples, results, conclusions, or anything else found on their website. Wikipedia:V and Wikipedia:RS are very clear about this. Jayjg^(talk) 22:26, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The reason you do in fact need to look at and understand the specifics of cases like this is contained in your use of the words "non geneticists" and "genetics" as if these are clearly defined as the subject here. They aren't. The subject was nominally whether JOGG could be used in some specific passage rudra deleted. Are all aspects of all Wikipedia articles citing JOGG "genetics" and are the JOGG citations being made about "genetics", and is "genetics" a clearly defined term with a clearly defined way of saying who is an expert? As Rudra knows, most of the controversial aspects of the Wikipedia articles involved are controversial because they involve multi-disciplinary overlap with geneticists and other published folk making comments about linguistics, archaeology and yes, even genealogy. No one is claiming to be arguing for breaking Wikipedia policy. The details of the case ARE important. Wikipedia:RS states that "Proper sourcing always depends on context". Saying you can not use a source with a reputation for accuracy and an editorial process for anything at all seems to have no basis in any Wikipedia policy?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

JOGG clearly fails our RS requirements and should be essentially treated as a self-published source. Further, the fact that it publishes papers not "appropriate for other established genetics journals" and in unexplored areas, raises Wikipedia:DUE concerns (if the relevant academic community hasn't made note of the research why should wikipedia give them any weight ?), and is another reason not to use it as a source. The only scenario in which I can imagine citing JOGG articles is if other reliable have cited them positively; in such a case the JOGG paper can be cited simply for convenience of the reader, in addition to the reliable source. Abecedare (talk) 04:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree that JOGG should be considered for wikipedia purposes a self-published source. It is not a journal of geneticists, and is essentially a hobbyist's rag, no matter how well-meaning. MarmadukePercy (talk) 06:14, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not sure why I've gotten into this discussion, and am defending what I more often criticize. I've cited a JOGG article only once in Wikipedia and was wishing at the time that I had a better source. See Talk:Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA)#Uí Néill if you can stand it when the occasional Wikipedian starts a discussion and rambles while unfortunately drunk. That said I defend my right to cite that paper because all I needed it for is M222 among the Connachta. DinDraithou (talk) 06:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This motion is based on a mixture of misunderstanding and very deliberate ill will by rudra, apparently with some support from other people interested in India-related articles. It is not justified. The JOGG is not an academic journal and does not claim to be, but academic journals are not the only type of reliable source. Marmaduke Percy is wrong to say that it is self-published. There is a board and an editorial process. If you look through the Wikipedia rules on these things, that is what is important. Is it respected? Yes. The JOGG has been referred to in more traditional academic journals, and the authors in JOGG correspond with and meet the academics and are respected by them. The role of non-academics in the field of understanding haplogroups is acknowledged in print by the academics, and indeed there is no way of denying that the "hobbyists" are leading the way in many aspects of the work being done. Population genetics as discussed in JOGG requires a few things: data, and understanding of statistics and certain other mathematical concepts. Some of the authors in JOGG such as Nordtvedt and Klyosov have superior mathematical skills than those normally found amongst geneticists. I note that none of the people in this discussion are generally people involved in working on articles in this field. The motion was moved by the latest of a myriad of Balkans versus India nationalist edit warriors with an axe to grind on R1a. A big part of the brand new strategy is to try to call the article my personal article, which it is not, and then to attack me personally, with Rudra creepily pretending that he is familiar with me off-wiki, which he is not, and referring to me as "just a genealogist" etc in a pseudo knowing way. (Who on earth is just a genealogist and why on earth would this need to be used as an argument?) See this. Attacking JOGG, where I have published, is clearly just one part of this. Rudra also uses his anonymity to carefully pretend he is qualified in this field which his edits and remarks on R1a show he is not. This whole discussion makes no sense if it is being led and managed by a group of edit warriors. I would not have heard about it if Doug Weller had not told me and I presume all other active editors in this area are also not aware of it. Any agreement reached here semi-secretly can and will be ignored. Is the JOGG important for Wikipedia? Yes. For anyone who cares about the quality of Wikipedia I think it is important to understand that one of the biggest challenges in getting good genetics haplogroup articles is the lack of any academic secondary literature. If we were to restrict all citations to articles already mentioned in secondary literature we would have to get rid of this whole field from Wikipedia because it would mean making articles based on information 10 years out of date. All people who know something of the field understand this. The JOGG does at least partly fill this role. It is also in many ways more neutral than the papers by the professionals with all their old articles to defend, BECAUSE it is written by educated and experienced non professionals. OTOH Rudra's accusations above concerning the "open secret" should be explained by him please. He is throwing nasty accusations all over the place without ever justifying them. What on earth is he talking about?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

(Apropos "See this": the thread is now archived here. Full text search for "genealogist" recommended.) rudra (talk) 02:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, it's a hobby website, written by non-experts in the field, whose "main emphasis... will be to present a forum for articles that may not be appropriate for other established genetics journals". A website on astrophysics could also have a very rigorous editorial process, but if those reviewing the submissions happened to be chiropractors and accountants, then it would also not qualify as a reliable source. What you describe as "the lack of any academic secondary literature" on the topics in question is what Wikipedia would view as a red flag. And while you may view non-professionals as "more neutral than... professionals with all their old articles to defend", Wikipedia generally views them as fringe. Jayjg^(talk) 20:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayg, with all due respect, you are answering based on theory, not knowledge of the journal or the field nor the editing disputes which are behind this proposal. Even normal newspapers can be cited in some scientific articles, for certain types of information and they often are. For this reason alone, making broad theoretical generalizations is useless. And of course this is exactly why people post their complaints about sources here sometimes BEFORE trying to discuss it on article talkpages - they hope to create enough confusion to make it look like there is an official command to favor their edits. But the normal approach is to first try to work with fellow editors to resolve concerns. Rudra should do that instead of wikilawyering.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Lancaster is correct that some of us participating in this discussion don't contribute to literature in the field. He is also correct, in my judgment, that some of the edit warring has descended into personal attacks, to which I have objected on the appropriate talk pages. But just because some editors don't contribute to journals in the field doesn't preclude us from taking part in this conversation. I have no credentials as a geneticist, but I do have some idea of assessing reliable sources. In the case of Klyosov, for instance, some of the more pseudo-nationalist claims in his work bother me. As do some of the same sorts of biases in other work that appears in JOGG. I am sure that there are good reasons both for and against considering JOGG a reliable source, and I am glad that the discussion has been opened here. And once again, I would ask editors to refrain from making personal attacks on other editors, which are unhelpful in trying to reach a concensus. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Which "personal attacks on other editors" are you referring to? Also, consensus has already been reached on this source. Jayjg^(talk) 22:16, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I meant reaching a consensus in the various genetics-related pieces, not this discussion. As far as personal attacks, I was referring to some of the edit warring in the R1a1 piece. MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm. Wouldn't the fact that nearly everything Rudra has written on any talk page about this subject is obsessively written about me personally, including insinuations that the JOGG is written by people who are part of a plot or out to make money, not raise any warning signals about this being a slightly suspect proposal? I'd say if people write like that they should be ignored unless they make their insinuated accusations very clear. As far as I can see this whole proposal is only part of an attempt to do a character assassination based on the incredibly stupid argument that someone who does genealogy has no credibility. Rudra knows everything he knows about R1a due to Wikipedia, and what he has learnt very recently due to his interest in Indian related matters.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(Clarification: This is the third time I'm linking to something that explains what for the second time I'm calling an "open secret". Up-thread here, the context was DinDraithou's remark that "Professional geneticists themselves tend to make uninformed conclusions on language spread, archaeological cultures, and peoples." on which I commented that "It isn't just bad, it's worse. They do it for the attention (and possibly for the funding that attention might garner)." The link, which explains this, is to a post on the IER mailing list. Another link would be to this search in that list, which finds more posts on that theme - viz. some geneticists are playing very fast and loose with ideas and issues of which they may know little beyond the sound-bite value.) rudra (talk) 04:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What is the relevance of these internet discussions to this discussion about JOGG please? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(Some amount of topic drift and tangential commentary is normal in threaded discussion. It only gets out of hand when lazy readers fail to heed context or to follow any links provided, and instead launch immediately into dramatic escalation with words like "insinuate" and nasty accusations in bold, and demand explanations. But, let no one answer, lest relevance be the next complaint!) rudra (talk) 15:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

So you posted something other than insinuations and vague accusations? Anyway, as they dominate the whole discussion they already are relevant, because you made it so from your opening lines about people who desire to be "upmarket" and academics. Or is that something relevant to Wikipedia policies? It seems to me that you choose the words of opening lines in a formal complaint with care. And if you continually repeat and even defend this style as your main "argument" then saying it is an accidental aside seems very unconvincing?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

JOGG is only the tip of an iceberg. There is a serious degree of Wikipedia:PRIMARY policy non-compliance in the "haplogroup" articles such as the one on R1a. Some idea of the impedance mismatch at work can be had from trying to reconcile the ease with which consensus was achieved on this board about JOGG with the fact that using a source like JOGG is routine in these articles, nary a second thought, i.e. that clearly a very different consensus is operant among the active editors of those articles. While this is a subject better suited to the Wikipedia:NORN board, Andrew Lancaster's diatribe can be put in context by simply comparing the article as I found it a few days ago and the result of my partial cleanup. That enormous bibliography of Wikipedia:PRIMARY material is a smoking gun I've left alone. rudra (talk) 02:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

While I happen to agree with you about JOGG, I disagree with you about editor Andrew Lancaster. He is a hardworking wikipedia editor, and I believe his edits are made in good faith. Both he and you are, in my opinion, doing your best to make the R1a article an exemplary piece. Ben Bradlee of The Washington Post used to routinely send out two reporters to cover a story – in the belief that two competitors would come up with a better article. That's how I view the two of you. If you could stop the personal attacks and work with each other, you'd go far to making this a better piece. You may disagree on sourcing. That can be worked out. But you're both smart and making valuable contributions. I hope you can see that at some point. MarmadukePercy (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you have it wrong. I'm a generalist, I have no specific abiding interest in haplogroups, and it isn't a specific concern of mine that the R1a article in particular become exemplary. I simply ran across some problems and tried to fix them. (Anyone who thinks I'm actually a troll can undo this diff and revert to the status quo ante, though merging this diff in the process would be a courtesy.) The problem in "working out" things, like sourcing, with Andrew Lancaster is that the choices necessarily are either to accept the deeply irrational or to escalate. What could be rationally worked out with someone who insists that 21-2/3 West Bengal Brahmins testing positive for R1a1a is a "formatting error" that needs to be treated with a "neutral point of view"? What could be rationally worked out with someone who insists that a journal with an impact factor ranked 74th out of 138 in its field is "major"? This sort of thing just goes on and on. Working on the R1a article has uncovered the deeper problem of Wikipedia:PRIMARY policy noncompliance. Maybe I should be escalating this to the Wikipedia:NORN board (as the R1a article isn't the only case), or maybe I should be letting this all go and leaving the Andrew Lancasters alone to play in their sandlots of choice. I don't know. rudra (talk) 05:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Uncovered? Again this obsessive need to talk in terms of plots and me personally! I am kind of flattered. Look, you have come to this whole subject from debates to do with Indian nationalism and frankly it is tainting your judgment. Your aggression is uncalled for and your efforts to avoid things that might impact Indian related discussions are twisting the R1a article so that no longer reflects what people who know this field would consider balanced. The problem of relying on primary sources in this field is just reality and something you have read me pointing out over and over as part of the problem which we Wikipedians should be working on constructively together. Your new insinuation that it is impossible to talk to me is not borne out by any facts. You entered the R1a talk page with personal attacks and personal attacks only, after clearly having spent some time researching me personally in order to do this. Only on Dbachmann's talkpage (an admin you respect) have you bothered to give meaningful discussion. I challenge Rudra to try Wikipedia:AGF discussion with fellow editors and consensus seeking and see if it works. Quite honestly, I would welcome it, and my discussions with good faith editors tend to be fast. I have long ago proposed removing the exact figures from Sharma but you never replied in good faith. I have also not intervened yet in your editing, in order to give you a chance to make your proposals in terms of real edits. (They are better than I expected, but I do evnetually to propose some changes.) Concerning the R1a data article you admitted to Dbachmann that removing all Sharma reference raises fine points of Wikipedia policy. BTW, thank you for calling yourself a generalist. How about calling me one too and quitting with the "just a genealogist" smokescreen?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(Implosions are painful to watch.) rudra (talk) 04:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

As Andrew says, any consensus reached here can and will be ignored by editors familiar with the material. I plan to. And I have respect for everyone here, but I think this discussion will prove of no consequence. Clearly it is not supposed to be about JOGG, which has not been the source of the problems. I do not think it is a proper soft target as it is better defended than may appear at first glance. DinDraithou (talk) 06:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

'Better defended,' in what sense? MarmadukePercy (talk) 06:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

DinDraithou, ignoring the consensus here is disruptive, with all that implies. Jayjg^(talk) 04:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Because this discussion is effectively an attempt to avoid using the R1a article's talkpage (because Rudra is scared of being slowed down by disagreements) people interested in this case should consider for example this older discussion on that article's talkpage, in which a larger cross section of active wikipedians who work in this area made comment. This was not about JOGG as such but about perhaps the most controversial JOGG source being used in the current article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I invite people participating in this discussion to try a Google "Scholar" search for better known JOGG articles. I just tried an obvious example using keywords "Athey", "Haplogroup", "prediction". To see the JOGG itself discussed in an academic peer reviewed article, indeed a rare case of a secondary style article, see King; Jobling (August 2009), "What's in a name? Y chromosomes, surnames and the genetic genealogy revolution", Trends in Genetics 25 (8): 351-360 , doi:10.1016/j.tig.2009.06.003, http://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/abstract/S0168-9525%2809%2900133-4 . Also here. The article specifically states that the JOGG and genetic hobbyists are now cite-able amongst academics and are knowledgeable and respected. Comments please.

By the way, I understand that amateur astronomers are often making cite-able discoveries too, although I am not an expert in this. If the only argument left is some sort of "qualifications" argument, I am sure this will be ignored. Wikipedia is not a technocratic elite or club with membership rules.

One last point in order not to allow the screwy context of this whole discussion to create infinite misunderstandings: I personally use JOGG as a reference very sparingly, when I know that avoiding it would mean making Wikipedia very out-of-date or very imbalanced compared to what is understood by people who know the field as a whole (which does include JOGG, and authors like Anatole Klyosov, whose letter regarding a paper by a group of well known academics was published and replied to in a major journal). I believe other responsible editors in this area do the same and we all see as a something to do carefully. Rudra has a right to question the "fine points" of such judgements, but such discussions should be on article talkpages. The current proposal is an attempt to avoid normal consensus building discussions, nothing more.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(The correct form of the suggested search in Google Scholar is not this. It is this, or perhaps this. Also of interest may be this and this.) rudra (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

(JOGG is mentioned twice in the King-Jobling article, both times on p.8. First, in the text:

Genetic genealogy enthusiasts often display an impressive level of knowledge about aspects of molecular evolution, population genetics and statistics; some of this is evinced in the quarterly online Journal of Genetic Genealogy (www.jogg.info). Although it lacks the standard scientific peer-review system of traditional journals, it is nonetheless attracting academic geneticists among its authors and is an interesting model for public involvement in scientific publication. Other resources for genetic genealogy are listed in Box 3. Thanks to the advances in DNA technology and the power of the internet, genetics is now joining astronomy as a science in which amateurs can make useful discoveries."

and then in Box 3:

The Journal of Genetic Genealogy (www.jogg.info; also see main text) publishes articles on individual surname studies, new methods of analysis, insights into mutation rates, geographic patterns in genetic data and information that helps to characterize haplogroups.

Box 3 also has this:

Wikipedia’s pages on Y haplogroups (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroups) provide up-to-date information on specific Y lineages [...]

which may explain a "need" for an agenda.) rudra (talk) 05:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Rudra, is there meant to be an accusation amongst the cherry-picking in that last bit? Why do your postings always seem to be filled vague unclear accusations? Be brave. Make your accusations clear and loud please. State your claim, make your case or else do not make irrelevant side remarks. When asking User:Dbachmann to block me for disagreeing with you for example, you boldly pointed out that I have a genealogy webpage as the main part of your case. What other great arguments have you got? The facts of the matter are obviously that JOGG (and ISOGG also) has a reputation for fact checking, an editorial review process, and is widely cited in the academic peer-reviewed press on a number of subjects. The term "hobbyist" is being used in an undefined way for rhetorical effect in this discussion, as if it has a clearly defined Wikipedia policy implication, which it does not.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

If Wikipedia policy is meant to be guiding us then the words framing discussion so far such as "hobbyist" have no relevant meaning, but this quote which was not included by Rudra does seem important:-

Thanks to the advances in DNA technology and the power of the internet, genetics is now joining astronomy as a science in which amateurs can make useful discoveries.

So we have academics citing JOGG articles often, calling the work "hobbyists" do well-informed and useful, referring to them making discoveries which they keep track of and cite, using their "hobbyist" databases and citing them, citing their society website (www.isogg.org) as their best reference point for SNP phylogeny... We also see that the JOGG is respected for fact checking and has an editorial process. Aren't these the kinds of things Wikipedia policy asks us to check for? All boxes are ticked and simply ignoring such Wikipedia relevant facts and being sucked in by policy-irrelevant, vague insinuations such as "genealogy hobbyists, albeit with upmarket "academic" aspirations" (opening line of this whole proposal) would make a mockery of this board.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:58, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Something I forgot to mention. Currently nearly all academic articles and also most Wikipedians including Rudra use the ISOGG website as their references for up to date Y haplogroup phylogenies. ISOGG is the International Society for Genetic Genealogy - "hobbyists" in the mainstream again.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the extreme abstract generalizing tendency in the new sub-section below, I see another point which might need covering. All RS discussions on this board should consider not only whether a source is reliable in a simple sense, but what in particular it is reliable or unreliable for. Nearly any source can be reliable for something. All too often people post here ignoring this. There are several problems in this case:-

1. Rudra recently spent a lot of time cutting out material he did not like from R1a. Specifically, he changed the opening lines quite a lot. This shows that he agrees with what it says concerning R1a being a subject in both "human population genetics and genetic genealogy", two different inter-related fields. The Journal of Genetic Genealogy is surely a good source for the latter, and just to remind, I have given academic geneticist sources which acknowledge its importance.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

2. Rudra seemed to state his case in a correct way in the sense of specifically asking what the JOGG might be good for or not good for, not just asking for blanket dismissal. However, with respect to this his description of what he thinks the JOGG might not be good for citing (something which the deleted material apparently did contain) is extremely vague.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

So much for consensus

To demonstrate that the regular editors of the haplogroup articles mean what they say - that consensus on this board regarding JOGG counts for squat: an edit reintroducing deleted material based on not one but two JOGG articles (Klyosov has already been mentioned; Gwozdz is a retired professor of engineering.) rudra (talk) 00:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This board is where decisions are made regarding which sources are reliable, and involved editors cannot ignore the consensus here. If disruptive behavior continues, the next step is to take the offending parties to AN/I. Jayjg^(talk) 04:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Any admin here who ignores Andrew's last few posts in this discussion and decides to harass him or me or any other editors for citing a JOGG paper appropriately will find himself or herself in trouble. But before that, a problem is that you're the only one really saying there is a consensus here, Jayjg, and you're only one admin. There may be others who agree with you but you hardly have a consensus. Just posting yourself again and again does not produce one. DinDraithou (talk) 05:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

In trouble? How do you plan to carry out this threat? Polices such as this cannot be overruled by a consensus on a talk page, that should be obvious. Dougweller (talk) 06:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

What policy? Did you read what Andrew found and posted? We won but you missed it.

Is a response to a threat a threat? Jayjg has gone power tripping because Andrew and I don't recognize his 'consensus', which he has clearly has some pride in. If he tries to follow through he'll end up looking small, and if he continues without background, worse than small: aberrant and bad for WP. You don't just get to beat up specialist contributors. DinDraithou (talk) 07:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Background? The only background he needs is an understanding of our policies and guidelines. No matter how expert someone is, that doesn't make them an authority as to what meets with our policies and guidelines. I'm not sure what you mean by beating up specialist contributors but specialists have no particularly privileges and get blocked and banned when necessary. And saying that a paper or a journal is not a reliable source is clearly not harassment. I'm not speaking as an Admin here, by the way, just as an experienced editor (well, I guess being an Admin has given me experience also). Dougweller (talk) 09:33, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

We seem to be loosing sight of the basics of this case.

• There was and is no consensus in this discussion. In other words this whole new track of discussion, taking us away from the real subject, is based on something which does not exist.
• The title of this sub-section implies that my new insertion of JOGG sourced material is simply a revert. It is not. I think this counts for something unless JOGG is simply being called unreliable for all possible sourcing? (But then again, as discussed above, there has been no serious attempt here to argue in detail what the JOGG can and can't be reliable for, presumably in the hope that this discussion can be cited as a kind of blanket ban.)
• Quoting policies and guidelines is easy. Applying them is more complicated. When people deny that an obviously complex case is complex this should be a warning signal.
• Consensus is not Rudra's priority and his posting here is cynically hypocritical! Note his behavior on R1a's talk page. Rudra started this new section to claim that edits were being made on the R1a article without taking note of what is agreed here. Putting aside the lack of clear agreement in this discussion, rudra consistently and openly ignores consensus, because he sees it as below him, and did not wait for any discussion in this case either. Wikipedia:BRD. This selective puritanism is a recurring theme in his wikilawyering. Why does there need to be a special section heading to discuss it? Looks like a deliberate diversion to me.
• In response to Doug's comment that this discussion can not be accused of being related to harassment, wikilawyering can be part of a bigger pattern of edits and talk pages postings which could qualify as tendentious editing. You'd need to look at the background in order to judge it. You can't pass judgment by looking at one fact in isolation in something like that.
• Because Rudra called this discussion without warning other involved editors and posted deliberately misleading explanations, anyone citing its conclusions in the future will not convince anyone. That's the reality of how Wikipedia works, not a threat. There'd need to be a better discussion.
• Most importantly, as Din points out some pretty strong arguments have been posted (just above where a new section was started, I wonder why?) and not replied to. All boxes are ticked (all concerns posted at first are answered) given the postings I made once I had time.

At the very least the case remains open. I tend to agree with Din though that the case is looking closed. In any case I would strongly suggest that discussion, if it is to be meaningful, should continue in the main section above and should not ignore the points made.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you've widened my comments beyond what I was talking about. The Haplogroup articles are a mess though and it is hard to wade through that mess. A big part of the mess is the use of sources. Dougweller (talk) 11:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Doug, JOGG is however not the problem, and R1a is not the best example of what you are referring to (any more). Many haplogroup articles cite discussion forums and personal webpages. If we clean that up, then your impression might be different. What's the biggest thing stopping us? The biggest thing stopping us is that for every article which is brought up to a less bad level, there are dozens of these types of single issue attacks which soak up enormous time and energy, for very little gain. Picking on the JOGG is misplaced. Discussions about JOGG sourcing should be about due weighting for specific areas, and not about trying to get it on some black list. Din's reaction might have been harsh but like me he is reading this discussion as an attempt to "win" a little battle by effectively black listing a source which is being used sparingly and reasonably in most real cases - and discussion should be about real cases and specifics in my opinion.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No, Andrew, it's not enough for you and DinDraithou to agree to get a consensus. Your problem is that nobody (or hardly anybody) else is areeing with you. Hans Adler 11:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hans, I agree. I did not declare a consensus. I said there is none.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Hans and Doug do either of you have any clear case where JOGG is to blame for the quality of any haplogroup (or similar) article being poor? What I can say with a high level of confidence is that Rudra himself knows that the need to use primary sources of ANY kind is the more general problem in many scientific areas. JOGG is just one example of many sources in this field, and it is not especially filled with primary research, so it is actually helpful in many cases. The only concrete example which Rudra has argued against in any detail, as part of the same session of activity he is having on R1a, was from an academic peer reviewed journal, not JOGG. Frankly it looks like he is going for a consolation prize. As far as I can see the appropriate behavior in all such cases is concrete and constructive discussion about due weight, and not trying to get around this by trying to get whole sources black listed. It is obvious to everyone who knows this stuff surely, that the big difference between this scientific field and, say, subatomic physics, is only one thing: the number of interested parties who drop by and get passionate. On User:Dbachmann's talk page Rudra has called my approach to this in haplogroup articles "naive inclusionist". That is not entirely wrong, except that it is not naive but very much something considered and tried out. He knows that many people working in this area think my approach has worked on a couple of articles so far, not necessarily to polish articles up to perfection, but to make them a workable and stable base for better editing. (Would Rudra have even touched the R1a article 6 months ago?) That's the real subject behind this discussion here as far as I can see. Ignoring that we are all really thinking about these things is leading to confusion. The JOGG is not the problem.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Whether or not JOGG is a reliable source depends on what point / wording you are trying to use it to support. It is not a black and white issue. If its conclusions are contradicted by more reliable sources than of course the more reliable sources are preferred.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Please review the discussion in the main section. A JOGG article prima facie is not Wikipedia:RS. If it can't be excepted by Wikipedia:SPS, then it is, at best, Wikipedia:OR. Your statement thus amounts to: we should allow Wikipedia:OR until and unless some Wikipedia:RS contradicts it. Is that what you really meant to say? rudra (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

It is certainly not a self published source. That is nonsense, and seems to indicate that you've read nothing posted in reply to you above. Is this your new accusation now? Originally the argument was apparently that the editorial board were not specialized in the right academic field for something. Having an editorial board kind of doesn't fit with being self-published does it?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:SPS exception pertains to articles in JOGG by established experts on topics within their field of expertise. Recognized geneticists are not precluded from publishing articles on genetics in JOGG, and if they do, such articles may qualify as Wikipedia:RS. That is the meaning of the Wikipedia:SPS "exception". rudra (talk) 21:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

No exception is required. JOGG meets the requirements of a reliable source. It has a "reputation for checking the facts" and it has "editorial oversight". In the above main body of this discussion I have given citation from outside JOGG which mention JOGG to this effect.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is correctly put, and pretty much describes the position being argued against by Rudra.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's be clear here; all the editors who are uninvolved in this dispute, namely User:Dougweller, User:Crum375,User:Abecedare, User:MarmadukePercy, and I, agree that JOGG is not a Wikipedia:RS. The reasons why are obvious, as have been outlined above. User:Andrew Lancaster, you are correct: "JOGG is not the problem". JOGG is merely a hobby journal, and obviously not useable as a source on Wikipedia. The problem is with editors who insist on ignoring both policy, and that clear and obvious consensus. And User:Andrew Lancaster, if you make any future comments, restrict them solely to discussions of JOGG and exactly how it does or doesn't comply with the Wikipedia:V policy and Wikipedia:RS guideline. Do not discuss other editors, or even the state of various articles. Jayjg^(talk) 01:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, no one is arguing the case for "ignoring policy". The application of policy is a subject of disagreement here. I also did not start a sub-section for diversionary discussion about other editors, and indeed this is a bad thing. But I responded to those diversionary accusations in this sub-section created by rudra. I am moreover concerned that he is presenting incorrect information and people are not checking it at all, and I think I may mention such concerns because they are relevant? Anyway: In the main section above I have laid out answers to all concerns and no one has commented or responded. If these explanations are simply ignored then how seriously can this discussion be taken? I also think it is relevant to point out that User:Abecedare is clearly someone who collaborates a lot with rudra and has come along to support him, User:Dougweller has been involved in JOGG discussions with DinDraithou before, and User:MarmadukePercy is also an involved editor whose position is also not as clear as you say (see above). Whether he realized the terms he was quoting back to rudra have specific Wikipedia definitions is unclear, and also whether he thinks the JOGG should be used is unclear. One of his major points was about the use of personal attack distorting discussion. You also ignored the posting of User:Jmh649 which was more in agreement with my position. My summary then, would be that there is no clear consensus and not even any real clear discussion. The discussion has been made deliberately confused and rushed in order to try to use this board as a kind of rubber stamp for edits rudra wants. Very few of the people here are really neutral, and those who are really must read beyond the inflammatory opening assault of rudra, who is making false claims pure and simple. Here is the background to Rudra opening a case here. As far as I can see, Rudra is basically a troll in this matter, and ignorant of the material and individuals he is making false accusations about.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:24, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Andrew Lancaster, your remarks were mostly about other editors. Please re-factor them, removing all references to other editors, and try again. Jayjg^(talk) 00:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, this SUB-thread is based on accusations by editors about editors, starting with its title, and I was responding to postings by others. I think that was justified given that the accusations obviously ARE having a major impact on how this whole case is being read, and indeed form the main body of the case against this source. Anyway the MAIN thread is above (or I have proposed a cleaner start below if anyone wants to respond there) and contains answers to concerns raised which can be discussed further if there are still doubts. Surely this thread does not need to be doubled and tripled by re-posting the same material over and over. In summary though, the JOGG has a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, and is widely cited as a reliable source within expert literature relevant to the citations under discussion - including peer-reviewed academic literature. Above I had shown this some time ago, with a google scholar search and a reference from a review article. These two things seemed enough to get more realistic discussion, but none has been forthcoming so far, and above I am waiting to answer any questions. Secondly I have stated that the JOGG is not being used to trump superior sources or make controversial citations, and I have asked for discussion about any examples if this is a concern. Again, I wait for any replies on that. Please do browse through the discussions above.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

BTW I see that above you asked Marmaduke Percy why he felt it necessary to refer to personal attacks in this discussion. You should read the talk page reference I have just given, which MP knows to be the background to this whole discussion. It is pure troll, and troll has a clear Wikipedia meaning. I checked before using the term.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Andrew, your remarks were again mostly about other editors. Please re-factor them, removing all references to other editors, and try again. Jayjg^(talk) 23:19, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

In terms of Wikipedia policy please?

There is a lot of confusion here because from the opening shots emotive words and cynical insinuations were being made, without any relevant reference to Wikipedia policy. (On the article talk page, Rudra himself has used only indecent personal attack to make it absolutely clear that his basic guiding policy concerning these genetics articles he hates is his personal common sense and screw everyone else. I would presume the people here who think they agree with him are not condoning that.) I believe it is actually not really clear what Rudra's argument is in terms of Wikipedia policies, and whether anyone who thinks they agree with him really does. So:-

Are we therefore agreed that the following are the basic policies relevant here are as follows?

• Does the source have a reputation for accuracy amongst experts in fields where it is being used as a source?
• Does the source have some sort of editorial fact-checking process in contrast to being self-published?
• Is the source being given undue weight in order to make claims in conflict with the highest regarded and most mainstream views in the areas involved?

Comments please on whether these are the relevant policies and what the answers to the three questions are. I say yes-yes-no. Strangely no one amongst those claiming to have considered the case and agreed with Rudra has addressed any of these three questions (neither, of course, has Rudra) which are based simply on Wikipedia policies. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Please review Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Jayjg^(talk) 00:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Someone here is reminding me of Zahi Hawass (the Magnificent One),[38] that great defender of Egypt against the evil forces of Set. DinDraithou (talk) 02:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Jayjg^(talk) 23:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Arguing until interlocutors give up appears to be a familiar technique. rudra (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Is the subject me?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

(Quoth a sage, "If the shoe fits...") rudra (talk) 02:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, obviously you were talking about me, but is this the right forum for talking about me? Should I respond to all your "asides"? I was told not to. But you keep posting this stuff, and indeed it is hard to see anything other than asides. I think it is important to see the context of the deletions you came here to try to get justified were recognized by people editing the article to be connected to a personal animus you have somehow developed about me without ever having tried to work with me or communicated with me at any length as far as I know.[39] Why am I being asked to pretend this is about Wikipedia policy while you show no shame at all in making it clear that for you it is not?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Jayjg, if you are saying that the discussion is waiting for me to reply to points, then with all due respect I think there is a misunderstanding. The very first discussion started before I knew about it and rushed ahead based entirely on the basis of the claims being made by one Wikipedian, which I have argued to be problematic; BUT since I found the time to post a reasonably detailed response to what I think are all relevant concerns, there has been virtually no further discussion about the subject (the source, the policies). Please see the first section above. As far as I can tell right now, nobody except the original creator of this thread has even read my more substantial replies due to the opening of an off-topic sub-section (by the same person) right underneath those key postings soon after they were made. I remain open to discussion if my initial postings have in any way failed to cover all points relevant to the subject. But I can not mind read. Can I ask you to please read what I posted above in the first section and let me know what you think? If you want me to report a nicer formatted version (rather than the several sequential postings I made above), for example, I can do it if that is what you really want.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Re-factoring of responses to initial posting

User:Jayjg has requested a re-factoring and with big reservations I shall do so. I believe all of the following repeats points already made. I hope I will not receive a Wikipedia:TLDNR response! :)

1. The terms of the initial "question". Actually the "question" was posted in a way which defined conclusions already in its terms. But these premises (which, as he explained to DinDraithou, were accepted by Jayjg without further checking of any examples) were quite questionable, and this needs to be discussed if this message board is to fulfill its function properly. There should be two things considered in any RS discussion: the nature of the source, and what it is being cited for. Reference will be made in a few places to a useful journal article:-

• King; Jobling (August 2009), "What's in a name? Y chromosomes, surnames and the genetic genealogy revolution", Trends in Genetics 25 (8): 351-360 , doi:10.1016/j.tig.2009.06.003, http://www.cell.com/trends/genetics/abstract/S0168-9525%2809%2900133-4 . Also here.

1a. The nature of the JOGG. In effect, the key concern raised was the expertise and recognition of the authors who write in the JOGG. It was claimed in the first sentence that JOGG is for "genealogy hobbyists", and specifically for ones with "upmarket "academic" aspirations". It was implied that the journal was deliberately set up to allow people publish things in a field they have no knowledge in. This is incorrect for several reasons:

• The accusation that the authors and editors of the journal aspire to be something other than what they are is not justified by anything cited and appears to be personal speculation by a Wikipedian.
• The accusation that the JOGG is a way to get published in a field where an author is not qualified also appears to be personal speculation by a Wikipedian. In order to make this accusation a passage was cited which simply stated that the JOGG aims to fill a gap not currently being filled, quite a normal aim for any journal. Any fair reading of the facts shows that the JOGG aims to have its own specializations and strengths.
• The knock-on implication that the authors are not knowledgeable or recognized in the subjects they write about, or more importantly for which they are being cited on Wikipedia, is also apparently personal speculation by a Wikipedian. Here is the google search I suggested for showing a JOGG article being widely cited, and not only by fellow JOGG authors: [40].
• (Note the central importance of the term "hobbyist" in all discussion here so far. The term is part of the first sentence and is then repeated by Jayjg as apparently the key part of his understanding of what is supposed to be relevant to the discussion (i.e. hobbyists contrasted to geneticists). The term is correct only if it means "not a tenured academic in genetics". But the key point for Wikipedia is concerning whether a person is verifiably a respected and knowledgeable source, and Jayjg clearly seems to think based on the wording of the opening that this is how the word can be understood in this case. It is unfortunate that this term is being used in such a central way instead of clear ones.)
• The journal's obvious association is with genetic genealogy and Genetic genealogy really is distinct from Genealogy. Nevertheless the word genealogy and genealogist have been used and dwelt upon as if it were an argument in itself in both this forum and in other places on Wikipedia, by the proposing party. In reality, one person can be expert in both, or only one of the two, and they can also be expert in other fields. Indeed, of course genealogists are rarely only genealogists. This raises a few issues for the claim being made:-

• In the peer-reviewed journal I brought into discussion, two top population geneticists note that the JOGG is "attracting academic geneticists among its authors".
• The second question is whether being an expert "genetic genealogist" is not on its own something that can potentially make one cite-able for. This has not even been considered, and I have struggled to try to get it considered, simply because of the way the question was framed here in the first place by wrongly stating that this is all about people deliberately finding a way to get published outside an area they know about. It isn't.
• That genetic genealogy is cite-able within population genetics is clear not only in the cases cited above, but also in the use of the ISOGG website as the standard citation for SNP phylogeny updates. (In fact, SNP phylogeny discoveries are now mainly coming from genetic genealogy, and being passed to population genetics, not the other way around. I know of no official source keeping score but I think my judgment is not particularly controversial and I mention as something that might be of interest. This balance has swung this way only within the last year or so.)

1b. What is being cited, what may be cited, what may not. While the initial posting used specific words to describe the suspected aspirations of JOGG contributors and editors, it was not so clear about what was being cited in Wikipedia from the JOGG, and this is essential to any meaningful discussion. While stating that he had not checked any examples, Jayjg however clearly understands that what is being cited from JOGG is "genetics" and he refers to the unreliability of the "samples" and "results" he presumes are being cited in Wikipedia.

• The subjects where JOGG is being cited in Wikipedia are normally described as "Population genetics" and "Genetic genealogy".
• Both these quite new fields obviously feed from genetics as a source technology, but neither are simply "genetics". We are not talking about lab testing, interpretation of lab results, interpretation of mutations themselves, etc.
• A specific characteristic of both these fields is how multi-disciplinary they are.
• Major population genetics articles for example have always had a strong tradition of included non-geneticists amongst their most important authors, and of being published in books and journals which are not about genetics.
• The JOGG is not being used to cite anything concerning "genetics" as such, but rather in the multi-disciplinary and specific genetic genealogy areas where it is strongest.
• The basic know-how needed in both fields is quite generalist (the ability to draw upon linguistics, archeology, medieval records etc) with the most technical aspect clearly being an understanding of the statistical analysis of dynamic systems, which is precisely what many of the JOGG editors and contributors have. This explains why physicists, chemists and engineers are making such an impact.
• The quality of some academic peer-reviewed population genetics articles have often rightfully been criticized on Wikipedia and in other forums, a problem coming from this need for multi-disciplinary thinking. But surprisingly perhaps, the JOGG is actually not the source of much controversy when it comes to controversial claims.

2. Excessive discussion of other subjects. Examination will show that a large part of the discussion both leading up to this proposal, and once it was made, are not about the JOGG at all, but about population genetics articles, which the proposing party has strong feelings about. In response to having this pointed out the proposing party has claimed that "Some amount of topic drift and tangential commentary is normal in threaded discussion". One hopes that it is recognized as tangential, because it dominates all discussion.

3. The Wikipedia policies on reliable sourcing are clear. They ask us to check whether a source has an reputation for being knowledgeable, for fact checking, and some sort of editorial process that goes beyond self-publication. All these conditions are met, and although I have asked for any questions on this there seems to be no disagreement about that.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

You've made some good points, Andrew. I suppose here is where I draw the line (and I'm no geneticist). If, for instance, a contributor to JOGG were writing about a particular family, for instance, and the reference supported an assertion in a piece about the family of President John Adams, for instance (just a made-up example), then I would be inclined to say that a journal of genetic genealogy study of the Adams family Y-Dna markers would be relevant and appropriate. In such an instance, the JOGG cite would be a crossover of genealogy and genetics. On the other hand, given what I've seen of some JOGG entries relating to the field of genetics as a whole, I think the quality of the work ranges from very good to dismal. I've been troubled by some of the more pseudo-nationalistic assumptions in some of the pieces. So I do agree with you that in certain instances, like, for instance, the Adams family case I raised, JOGG might be an appropriate resource. But for the general genetics field, I have been less than impressed by the consistency of the journal's entries. Just my two cents, but thanks for your thoughtful post. MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the positive, directly verifiable evidence provided:

• On the King-Jobling article, Trends in Genetics 25(8), 351-360

• Claim (here): "The article specifically states that the JOGG and genetic hobbyists are now cite-able amongst academics and are knowledgeable and respected."

• The article does not specifically state cite-ability. It acknowledges that amateurs can be knowledgeable and contribute discoveries (the "astronomy model"). (The full text is available in a quote-box up-thread.)
• User:Abecedare had already anticipated this: "The only scenario in which I can imagine citing JOGG articles is if other reliable have cited them positively; in such a case the JOGG paper can be cited simply for convenience of the reader, in addition to the reliable source."
• Wikipedia cannot be the one to identify the knowledgeable amateurs, and there is no implication, let alone guarantee, that amateurs publishing in JOGG are ipso facto knowledgeable. (Besides, it is not Wikipedia's brief to identify the amateurs' discoveries either. They could just as easily be Wikipedia:REDFLAG items. This again raises the wider issue of the proper treatment of primary sources.)
• Note also that King-Jobling discount JOGG's peer-review system ("lacks the standard scientific peer-review system of traditional journals"). This is not favorable to a reputation for fact checking.
• The "Wikipedia:SPS exception" has also been already noted: that articles in JOGG by established academics in their own field may be acceptable as reliable, but do not thereby make JOGG a reliable source.

• Claim (here): the article is by "two top population geneticists".

• Two? Professor Mark Jobling is well known. Dr Turi King is a Research Associate. (U of Leicester, Dept of Genetics, Faculty listing). Was the puffery necessary? (Or was it a demonstration of familiarity with the field?)

• Comment: The article has good things to say about JOGG, but one swallow does not a summer make.

• On searching Google Scholar with the terms "Athey", "prediction" and "haplogroup".

• Claim (here): "an obvious example" of "better known JOGG articles".
• Claim (here): this is the search to perform for "a JOGG article being widely cited, and not only by fellow JOGG authors".

• The search specification in the link provided is incorrect. It fails to account for Google's relevance ranking algorithms in the presentation of results ("one page of hits does not a conclusion make") and, quite fundamentally, for false positives, stemming from the fact that the default combination of multiple search terms is a logical OR, not a logical AND.
• The correct search is this. And, for the sake of argument, this might actually be more favorable.
• Among the hits for Athey's predictor is this peer-reviewed article. IOW, caveat emptor.

• Comment. How does JOGG itself fare on Google scholar?

• This and this give some indication. Note that quite a few "Cited by" links lead to effective self-citations.

• Summary. The positive evidentiary claims are overblown. JOGG is not unknown, is clearly well-meaning and serious about being academic (or professional) in approach, but falls short of the requirements of Wikipedia:RS. rudra (talk) 06:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It is hard to find anything relevant to Wikipedia policy above, and so I will not lengthen the discussion by going through all the evidence being offered which effectively comes down to the term "overblown" which is itself a relative word. The basic claim that JOGG is cited by experts, respected, has a reputation for accuracy, fact checking and editorial oversight, are not being addressed and appear to be accepted "with reservations". In summary the reservations made in reply to my re-factored posting are now the same as made by me, DinDraithou, Dougweller, and Doc James, that whether use of the JOGG is within Wikipedia RS policy depends on the context of what it is being used for etc etc. In other words such discussion should be handled as content discussion on article talk pages, (and as I mentioned, JOGG is not being used in any particularly controversial on Wikipedia, certainly Rudra's original claim made no special claim about particular examples). No blanket ban appears to be appropriate or is anyone claiming otherwise? I note that User:Rudra's larger concerns (which fill his posts about this concern) concern all speculation in the whole academic field of population genetics and he is increasingly needing to rely upon claiming "redflag" special cases where "common sense" about the truth trumps normal policy when it tells him that a well-referenced claim is exceptional (as he refers to it on other talk pages "RS bullshit"), and needs to be given special treatment. How justified is it to treat a whole field as made up of special cases?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:36, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Mere words. No claim has been substantiated satisfactorily. rudra (talk) 07:40, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I humbly disagree. Your own "mere words" which I read, come down to saying my remarks were in your opinion correct but somehow over blown. I find your points vague, tendentious, wrong, in various ways, but I also do no think this is the venue for arguing about irrelevant fine points of personal opinion, such as just how well known Turi King is and just how many academic articles have cited JOGG. The exact answers are not the point. What you have NOT denied is that JOGG is cited by experts, has a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, and an editorial process widely understood to be neutral. Given that you have not denied that, what is there to discuss on this forum here? The criteria for being RS were what again? I think JOGG can be used in certain contexts. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Please review Wikipedia:SPS, Wikipedia:REDFLAG, Wikipedia:FRINGE, and Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. The issue has already been discussed at length in the only terms that are relevant to Wikipedia, that is, in relation to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If there are is any "established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" then they can be treated as a Wikipedia:SPS in a Wikipedia article. Since the "relevant field" in this case is Genetics, that would generally rule out any "student studying intellectual property law", "retired engineering manager", "retired physicist", "attorney in private practice specializing in family law", "Professor of Chemistry", "Coordinator of Reference Services", "M.D.", "economist", or "Associate Professor of Mathematics and Computer Science", which comprise essentially all of JOGG's "editorial board". Category:Genetics journals currently lists 37 genetics journals. For the most part the seem to publish real geneticists, and are edited/reviewed by real geneticists. Please feel free to use those that qualify liberally in the relevant articles. Jayjg^(talk) 23:28, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

We all agree to follow Wikipedia guidelines, and that JOGG should not be used for extraordinary claims outside its acknowledged area of accuracy etc. In terms of defining where that border will lie in specific cases, this discussion has clearly failed to get started. Jayjg you clearly have not read a single thing I wrote, and all you've wanted to do is declare the discussion simple and closed without discussion, right from the very first emotive proposal about hobbyists aspiring to be academics was filed. Even a newspaper article can be used to reference the existence of certain discussions in science, depending on the context, and indeed many top peer-reviewed authors in academic journals in this field are not qualified geneticists, so the simple solution you are suggesting that sources for anything to do with a scientific field must be authored by someone with particular university qualifications is "way out there" and very far from anything to do with RS policy. Frankly, if I may observe the reality here, this discussion board should not really be used as a place for admins to come for unquestioning moral support, or even just to let off steam, after they start emotion driven edit wars about content in areas they are not familiar with. If it were allowed to become that then it would cease to function within the community. See Wikipedia:NOTBUREAUCRACY.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

BTW Jayjg you apparently have not fully understood or read the complaints of the person you want to support, the same as you have not read the replies. Rudra has never claimed that the JOGG is being used to cite red flag or fringe style information. I am thinking you are in way too much of a hurry in your approach to this discussion and really I question the point of bothering posting if you do not have the time. When two experienced editors who obviously know the policies come to this board I do not see the point of giving rushed answers using vague lists of links to commonly cited WP policies, and then telling people the case is closed?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Andrew, your behaviour w.r.t. sourcing has previously raised some red flags for me, but I could not make up my mind and simply assumed good faith and adequate competence since I had no incentive to check the details of your highly technical articles. Then DinDraithou came along and raised lots of red flags when he argued very forcefully for treating Stephen Oppenheimer as fringe based on unpublished research. And here he defends JOGG as a reliable source, although not as forcefully. Can you see how the situation is not looking good at all? How plausible is it that there is a scientific field in which all the real researchers, those with results that can be taken seriously, publish not at all or only in JOGG, while the ignoramuses publish widely discussed books and journal articles and get positions at Oxford and elsewhere? Can you see how this looks as if you and DinDraithou aren't completely neutral? One of the most important abilities of a researcher is judging which sources are reliable, which are useless, and which are useful speculations. History of science is full of examples of what happens if a large number of researchers don't have this ability and run off in one direction based only on a vision and speculations. It appears to me that you and DinDraithou may be part of a community that may have precisely this problem. Hans Adler 09:26, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I have discussed JOGG with both you and Doug before a few times in what I thought was a constructive way. And yes I think all these occasions involved DinDraithou. But please be careful about mixing subjects. You mention "red flags" in the normal sense of anything which raises a concern, in this case concerning debates DinDraithou was in, but of course Jayjg is referring to a specific policy page on Wikipedia concerning sourcing for extraordinary claims. There is no discussion here about such things as far as I can see? Anyway, you ask me whether I understand that this history looks bad, so here is an attempt at a good faith answer to what seems to me to be a slightly odd question:-

• Because DinDraithou thinks a source can be used, is this a case against that source? Obviously not, and if people try to use such arguments what can I say or do about it? However you now introduced this idea, and this was not an argument? Should it be?
• I certainly do not recall you ever saying you were worried about my sourcing, or you and I debating anything from different sides. I can't even recall you saying anything negative about my editing or sourcing. I do recall you being positive.
• In the cases I remember I believe I am being fair in saying I was asked for my opinion in articles I was not involved in at the time, and that I was able to help find alternative sourcing and/or wording, for which I was thanked? What did I miss? Are there really open concerns?

The only disagreement between us perhaps was that you have a very particular concern about Steven Oppenheimer, where I agreed basically with DinDraithou. But:

• Oppenheimer does NOT fit the description Jayjg is implying in this discussion here. He is not a qualified geneticist or primary researcher in that field. If anything he is a great example of what is wrong with Jayjg oversimplification about "genetics", because Oppenheimer is surely citable in genetics.
• Frankly, a big part of your argument with DinDraithou was about showing respect for Oppenheimer, given his high position in Oxford, or at least that is how I read it.
• I recall you making an appreciative posting about information I posted which explained in a more acceptable way to you why his out-dated books certainly do NOT represent the mainstream in this field.
• Saying that Wikipedia articles should not be based on Oppenheimer's books is not a "redflag" extraordinary claim, and such an opinion can can be sourced in many ways, which is part of what I did. Again, the biggest problem in the discussion which concerned you was that Oppenheimer's old books are just completely out of date.

Apart from concerning Oppenheimer, who you thought it was controversial NOT to use more, in no case I can recall was JOGG being used as a source for any even debateably extraordinary claims concerning "genetics" as I think the term is being used above. Please review you thoughts about the previous concerns you say you've had, because as mentioned above, if you or Doug have concrete and relevant examples, I would be interested to discuss these with either of you on any forum.

A final point. One of the central sentences in your remark above is as follows "How plausible is it that there is a scientific field in which all the real researchers, those with results that can be taken seriously, publish not at all or only in JOGG, while the ignoramuses publish widely discussed books and journal articles and get positions at Oxford and elsewhere?" I have no idea how to relate this sentence to anything in this discussion. Nobody is saying Oppenheimer can not be cited with due weight considering it is out of date, and this thread should not be about Oppenheimer. Nobody is saying that JOGG should be used for citing anything unusual to do with the technical side of genetics, and it isn't being used that way. I have to repeat my concern that this whole discussion started with a first sentence that had a big soft core of innuendo, and all discussion has been distorted by this. PLEASE read my re-factored summary above.

Here is something more concrete. DinDraithou has said he tries to avoid sourcing from JOGG, and that he does not really like it. What I think you might be missing is that the main area he sees it as citeable is about genetic applications to Irish genealogy, which I would say is more "genetic genealogy" than population genetics. Makes me wonder. When geneticists write about Irish dynasties and surnames (which they do) I wonder if Jayjg and Rudra would say that they are writing about "genetics". If I want to know about Irish dynasties I will not be looking around for a doctor of tropical medicine.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:40, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a big misunderstanding about what is being proposed by me, and I think others, who disagree with Rudra. Here it is: JOGG is not a questionable source such that it should incur a blanket ban in anything at all which touches upon genetics. It meets the basic requirements of an RS, and therefore when and how it should be used is a content question to be looked at in the context of concrete examples, as per Wikipedia policy.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

It has been contended, in bold for emphasis, that "Rudra has never claimed that the JOGG is being used to cite red flag or fringe style information." This is both true and misleading. Wikipedia:REDFLAG and Wikipedia:FRINGE are issues that properly arise only in the treatment of reliable sources. If a source is not reliable to begin with, then red flags, fringe and other such concerns are moot. My concern was with whether JOGG is a reliable source. Raising issues such as Wikipedia:REDFLAG and Wikipedia:FRINGE would have been obfuscation and would only have diverted attention from the basic issue. In other words, I have not claimed these about JOGG, not because they are not in evidence, but because in the present matter they are irrelevant. The apparent further implication, that issues such as Wikipedia:REDFLAG or Wikipedia:FRINGE need to be raised in order to disqualify the reliability of a source, is absurd. rudra (talk)

Jayjg is correct in thinking redflag and fringe is relevant in this discussion. If JOGG is not being used for redflag or fringe citations this is important information because that is the main concern that you created amongst others. Everyone in this discussion have written (as they should) as if the JOGG might be an RS for some types of citation, but they have been led to believe by you that JOGG is being used as a source for "genetics" (e.g. "results" and "samples") as if it were simply a genetics journal, and that this is what I and others have argued for. They think this is what your question is about. The fact is that you have continually been misleading and vague about the context of your posting and what you really disagreed about in the examples you came here with. As demonstrated above, JOGG is a source with some level of reputation for fact checking and accuracy, and even newspapers can be used to report about science, so a simple blanket ban is out of the question as far as Wikipedia policies are concerned. The JOGG simply does not come under the definition of a questionable source, even if it is not the best of sources for many things. But it is an RS to some extent, like you effectively admitted in your above reply to my re-factored response, and so it can be cited "to some extent". The question is or should be about the extent and the particular uses it might be proposed for. The fact that is not being used for anything controversial is very relevant I think. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Mantra-like repetition of a personal opinion will not make it true. To repeat, once again. JOGG does not meet the requirements of RS, as it falls short of the professional and/or academic standards of a RS. It has not been demonstrated that JOGG has a reputation for fact-checking or accuracy: citing the King-Jobling article to this end is some combination of comprehension failure and wishful thinking. For one thing, K-J explicitly discounted JOGG's peer-review system: this was hardly an endorsement of JOGG's procedures for fact-checking and accuracy. And what K-J wrote, in a nutshell, was that the field (note: the field, and not JOGG) has knowledgeable amateurs (who may contribute discoveries), and that such amateurs along with academic geneticists may be found publishing in outlets like JOGG. To sum up, yet again: JOGG is merely an outlet for what at best will be Wikipedia:SPS material. That is, even one more time: individual articles may be RS on their own merits, but JOGG is not a RS such that any article in it would automatically qualify (i.e. the way it works with reputable academic journals). All of this has been established again and again and again. The consensus is clear. Please desist from any further repetitive and contumacious arguing. rudra (talk) 03:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but you are making things up. King and Jobling did not "explicitly discount" JOGG's editorial process, which by the way works like a peer review system. They simply distinguished it from an academic peer review process. No one is arguing that JOGG is an academic journal. But Wikipedia, while it respects the academic peer review system, does not demand it.

(And indeed in the adjunct debates you are having about India related genetics, you also want peer reviewed "bullshit" not mentioned in Wikipedia, on "common sense" i.e. Wikipedia:TRUTH based arguments. So your concern is certainly not peer review as such. Your real concern in this campaign is that your "common sense" tells you that genetics articles are trying to keep too much up-to-date for Wikipedia.[41])

What King and Jobling explicitly did was say that it was a journal with a reputation for fact checking and having an editorial fact checking process. You made your case above ("The article has good things to say about JOGG, but one swallow does not a summer make.") Also, your concession that an amateur, or "hobbyist" as per your opening, CAN be knowledgeable is essentially removing your one and only "argument" from the beginning, which was using the word "hobbyist" as the reason for not accepting JOGG ever as an RS.

No one is arguing for extensive use of JOGG to make critical technical points in genetics related articles. That straw man is confusing all discussion. It is being used sparingly to add a bit of perspective here and there. Oh, and it concerned Hans that it was cited on talk pages in argument about a well known author, but other sources could also be cited in that case.

If it is your proposal that the JOGG is a reliable source for nothing at all, and can be a reason on its own for deleting materials (which is what you did in the edits you then announced to the board for justification here) then this is a big call and has not been justified. You have not even begun to make any case about this which is relevant to anything in Wikipedia policy, and people responding to you positively are doing so on the basis that they do not realize this is the extreme argument you are trying to get justified here. Speculating about people wanting to be "up market academics" and similar hot air does not cut it as an explanation about Wikipedia policy application.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Making things up? Here we go again :-( For quick reference, the text from King-Jobling, one more time (and full text search for "fact" and "cite" may, just may, help):

Genetic genealogy enthusiasts often display an impressive level of knowledge about aspects of molecular evolution, population genetics and statistics; some of this is evinced in the quarterly online Journal of Genetic Genealogy (www.jogg.info). Although it lacks the standard scientific peer-review system of traditional journals, it is nonetheless attracting academic geneticists among its authors and is an interesting model for public involvement in scientific publication. Other resources for genetic genealogy are listed in Box 3. Thanks to the advances in DNA technology and the power of the internet, genetics is now joining astronomy as a science in which amateurs can make useful discoveries.

• Here we see the claim: "What King and Jobling explicitly did was say that it was a journal with a reputation for fact checking and having an editorial fact checking process." Explicitly?
• Here we see the claim: "The article specifically states that the JOGG and genetic hobbyists are now cite-able amongst academics and are knowledgeable and respected." Specifically?

There's a word for this phenomenon. It's what makes a "top geneticist" out of a Research Associate. It's what makes a "major journal" out of an impact factor ranking of 74th in 138. It's what makes JOGG a RS out of thin air. The characteristic feature is the casual yet total disregard of facts. It's a bit more than just making things up, and it explains the futility of "discussing" anything with certain types of people. rudra (talk) 08:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

This and more context from the article is already quoted already above and can be read there. But you are confusing the issue, responding to a straw man. No one is claiming that JOGG is a "top" "genetics" journal, nor that it should trump any.

Just to remind you what you were making up, you were claiming that King and Jobling "discount" JOGG's "reputation for fact-checking or accuracy"? And yet previously you said "The article has good things to say about JOGG, but one swallow does not a summer make."

By the way, I kindly ask you to cease your constant "asides" which give wrong impressions about what you are responding to and what is being discussed - for example I mean "here we go again"; your various troll style edit summaries[42]; your knowing sounding "asides" about other articles[43] and my editing history[44], and the constant use of Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT instead of answers to substantive and unanswered points (implying that the point has been responded to already). Please note that I have been asked not to respond to issues relating to particular articles or editing disagreements even though they form the core of what your write. This is having a pretty big impact on the usefulness of this discussion to say the very least.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

After I specifically requested you to stop linking to discussions about other edit disagreements, because I have been asked not to keep pointing to the links you keep mentioning in misleading "asides" between this case and others, you edited the post I had replied to already, to ADD a link to a discussion about another source. Are you trying to imply to others not reading carefully that the other discussion was about a JOGG article? Or are you tacitly agreeing with me that your whole discussion here is not just about JOGG for you? Or are you just not sure what your point is?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

As I've written before, had this been Usenet, I would have plonked you long ago. The limitations of the medium here prevent my arranging to make what you write disappear from my view, so occasions will arise where I'm more or less obliged to address you directly. This is one of those, hopefully rare, occurrences. It has become necessary to point something out.

You seem quite unaware that apparently persuasive phrasing on the order of "formatting error", "major journal", "two top geneticists", "specifically", "explicitly", etc. -- are all instances of Bullshit. Not only do you seem oblivious of your propensity to bullshit, you also seem incapable of absorbing the incontrovertible evidence of your bullshit when presented to you. You also seem untroubled by the fact that bullshit is fundamentally abusive behavior, especially in Wikipedia's culture of Wikipedia:AGF. People are not fools or naifs to believe what you write simply because you wrote it; nor are they imbeciles incapable of reading and comprehending evidence for themselves, who need others to exercise judgment for them. Yet these are the expectations of others that you convey by your bullshit. Please examine your behavior and try to free yourself of what seems to be an unconscious habit. Thank you. rudra (talk) 13:08, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure why you felt the need to broaden and intensify your personal attacks and go even further off-topic, but I do feel I must respond to these comments.

Concerning this topic here, I defer to my re-factored explanations as the clearest statement I made so far, even if imperfect. Your fuzzy complaints about particular words like what University position a "top geneticist" should hold (I'd say you should look at publications, there are not many teams in this field; Leicester is one of the top ones anywhere) and how to use google scholar, are just very watery and vague, and that is obvious. In effect, whatever criticisms you might be able to come up with (I am not perfect, sure) the re-factored posting has changed the nature of discussion so that only you are left holding an extreme position.

The practical role of this message board is being walked over by your arrogant insistence of treating a discussion about fine points of Wikipedia policy as if you are dealing with a black and white case, and the only problem is idiots who know nothing. Everyone agrees including you that JOGG can potentially be used in some cases. The problem is only coming from you specifically wanting to extend the need for caution in a case like JOGG, to a sort of blanket right for being able to delete any passage at all without discussion. This is apparently, why it is so important to you and I (who know the edits involved), but no one else, whether it is called an RS in no way at all, with possible exemptions sometimes, or a poor RS, requiring caution but useable sometimes. You would think there is no practical difference, but your edits (the ones you came here wanting to justify) show what you wanted to try to use this board to rubber stamp.

But your comment above reflects very clearly the underlying problem which is that you do not really WANT to reply to me ever, and when you do, it is because you feel forced to (thank goodness) by Wikipedia rules. This animus is apparently based on some sort of insights you had about me before ever having tried to make constructive contact with me, while you were busy flaming another editor, concerning an R1a related topic, on an India related article ([45], [46], [47]) which I was hardly aware of at the time.

Here is how you entered conversation with me: [48]. It was described by Marmaduke Percy, who posted a complaint there, as amounting to "personal insults at editor Lancaster" that "does nothing to further the aims of an encyclopedia". It contains such greatest hits as:

• "The notion that WP is obligated to faithfully reproduce howlers simply because they happen to appear in <reverential_hush>reliable sources</reverential_hush> does not strike me as a sound basis for policy."
• "So far, all you've managed is the POV-pusher's standard bleat "but but but it passed peer review!""
• "And now you dare to question me?? Where the f*ck do you get off, Andrew Lancaster?"

Your subsequent personal attack speeches about me to User:MarmadukePercy ([49]) and User:Dbachmann ([50]), which are the lead up to your postings here and your broadening of now increasingly vague complaints that all genetics related articles are somehow OR?? (I have asked you to explain)[51], are just pure poison, way out of line with regards to any number of Wikipedia policies, and frankly obsessive. You seem to be trying to blame me personally for anything that annoys you in the world. They show that you are someone who can not be treated seriously. In such conditions, difficult communication is just what you would expect I think?

You want me to think about this more? I think I should think about it less, and I think you should also. I feel confident that most people would agree with me.

You clearly do not like the Wikipedia:AGF rule, nor Wikipedia:TRUTH and Wikipedia:NEUTRAL, at least when they apply to your edits. You want Wikipedia to have bosses, and you want to be one of them. The examples of flame wars discussed above, which you seem to be regularly involved in, show that you feel outrage at people questioning you.

You mentioned now several times what you would like to do to me if we were on USENET. We are not on USENET.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Obfuscatory and diversionary "points" need no response. The issue was JOGG's credentials as a RS. The evidence presented was the King-Jobling article. The evidence was found inadequate, barefaced claims of "explicitly" this, "specifically" that and whatever notwithstanding. There is no evidence of JOGG having a reputation for fact-checking or accuracy beyond what would be normal for sincere amateurs. Which is simply not enough for the Wikipedia:RS guidelines. The conditions for exceptions by Wikipedia:SPS rules are similarly straightforward. There is nothing further to discuss. rudra (talk) 10:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Everything has been answered above. I expect any further attempt to explain anything will meet with more claims that I am the one talking in circles. That's a set piece game plan that is obvious now. Citing Wikipedia:IDIDNTHEARTHAT as a cover for not having an argument yourself (or not one you want to go through) appears to be the new cheap trick for wikilawyers on Wikipedia. I only ask that people read my postings in order to read what I wrote, and not Rudra's re-readings of them, which are confusing the issue over and over.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: I can't believe this discussion is still ongoing! Since the opinions of other uninvolved editors above is not being given much credence, I'd recommend getting the input of User:DGG, who has real world expertise in judging such sources, and then following what he says. Note that, simply disregarding independent input is not really an option, and editors who do are liable to be blocked for Wikipedia:TE. Abecedare (talk) 20:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I was asked for an opinion & at this point i haven't the least idea of what position anyone has been taking, & I'm not going to look immediately. Rather, I'm looking first at the publication itself, not the debate above. It's not an academic peer-review journal. It seems to be, however, an extremely good hobbyist magazine. Wikipedia RSs are not limited to academic peer reviewed publications. I can think of many fields in which the hobbyists have done very good work long before the professional academics get involved, & remain doing good work supplementary to them: computer history, asteroids, field botany, and so on in the sciences, and quite a lot in the humanities. In a era of "big science" and the great growth of the academic establishment, we tend to forget this. It is somewhat surprising to me that this has turned out to be the case in molecular genetics (since I was trained in an earlier period of molecular biology reliant on rare and expensive , often unique, instrumentation) ), but the development of commercially available dna mapping services has made it possible. I examined a number of the articles; none seem absolutely stupid.

I need to remind people that there is a wide divergence in quality in articles published in peer-reviewed journals--even between articles published in good peer-reviewed journals. there is no source that is absolutely reliable or absolutely unreliable--the way Wikipedia guidelines characterize them is, in my opinion, a little unrealistic. The material from this journal can be used, but used carefully. Looking now at the comments above, I think DinDraithou said this back at the beginning of the argument.

I see that the conflicts are primarily about the R1a haplotype, This is an interesting situation, where the state of the fundamental knowledge can best be described as unclear, and various people at Wikipedia are making strong assertions about it, and attempting to evaluate the intrinsic quality about public work, a task best left to experts writing in peer-reviewed sources, not in Wikipedia. Rather, they need to recognize the existing state of uncertainty, and do what scientists actually do, which is wait until further work is done before drawing conclusions. (personally, the part I find most interesting is the possible conflict between it and mitochondrial dna data, which, if true, has fascinating sociological implications.) DGG (talk) 01:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

DGG, you are right that this discussion stems from discussion involving R1a, but the removal of JOGG material has not been connected to any disputes about what the current mainstream positions are. The R1a article as re-structured by me a few months back is dominated by one very recent peer reviewed source (Underhill et al 2009) and despite all the debates about other things, I believe I am right in saying that every editor who has looked at the article has accepted this, or even explicitly said that this is the way it should be. The only content dispute which involved a clearly defined claim that the R1a article was trying to keep too much up to date was concerning Sharma et al (2009), which was published in a peer reviewed journal. Rudra has compromised on that by allowing it to stay in the bibliography though I think I am correct in saying that there is no other editor of the article who agrees with this, and does not feel his position to be making the article deliberately not reflect mainstream understandings. (This is not to say that other editors simply ignore or can not understand his quite specific concerns with that particular source.) In any case, although Rudra himself keeps referring to that case here in this forum, it has nothing to do with the JOGG question. The 2 JOGG references in the article were deleted by Rudra with an edit summary which simply said the JOGG was not a reliable source, and then this discussion started and Rudra also posted a new thread on the article talkpage which made it clear that he linked the two cases as linked[52] making comments implying that he thinks the real problem is "original research" and saying he might start an NOR case. Concerning the JOGG, which is what this discussion is supposed to be about, please note that Rudra claims (above) that he does not even need to talk about whether they were being used to say anything controversial or outside the JOGG's competence, because his apparent understanding of RS rules is that the JOGG MAY NOT be used for ANYTHING? That's the only way I can read what he is saying. Does this make sense?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Other than (a) endorsing JOGG on the basis of Wikipedia:OTHERCRAP and Wikipedia:ILIKEIT; and (b) leaving the apparently portentous phrase "used carefully" conveniently (and carefully) undefined, I see nothing new here. rudra (talk) 20:13, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

More formal response to response to re-factored response

Personally, I believe it is unclear whether this case is still open at all. Since the re-factored response, the only responses have nearly all been effectively "can be used, with caution" unless I am reading it wrongly. However there is clearly some doubt remaining even if it is a one person minority. DGG suggests a more formalized approach to discussion, so once again, I am going to re-factor comments which have already been made. The responses which were made to my re-factored response did not cover all aspects of the re-factored response. They focused only on two things: the citation about the JOGG which was written by King and Jobling in a peer reviewed journal; and google searching.

1. Concerning the example of an academic review article which explicitly made positive remarks about JOGG...

• Claim. The article does not "article does not specifically state cite-ability" as I had read it to. My claim to this effect has been flamed extensively.

Response. I can accept that the word "cite-ability" is not used, and so with a lot of imagination, there might be argument about this. However:-

• It is actually not critical to Wikipedia rules. It is just lucky that there is an academic review to help this discussion, and Wikipedia would not be able to function if it needed a peer reviewed journal to explicitly call a source "citeable" for us. Wikipedia rules actually ask us to check the reputation for knowledge, and whether there is a fact checking process. If these rules are met then the rest is up to content discussion amongst editors in order to get due weighting.
• The same Wikipedian questioning how clearly the article says that the JOGG is cite-able does accept that the article is positive about the JOGG, and that it refers to the JOGG as a source showing knowledge, being read by academic authors, and contributed to by academic authors. This at least strongly implies cite-ability, if not conclusively, or else what makes something cite-able?
• If we must use exact words, then the article does explicitly call the JOGG a source for "articles on individual surname studies, new methods of analysis, insights into mutation rates, geographic patterns in genetic data and information that helps to characterize haplogroups". It names these types of articles as examples of subjects the JOGG is handling well, it seems to me.
• The article does explicitly call JOGG a "model for public involvement in scientific publication". It is hard to imagine that you can call a journal a model for any type of scientific publication and not be thinking it can be cite-able.
• The article does explicitly point out that it is not only the academics publishing in JOGG but also that the JOGG is showing that "amateurs can make useful discoveries".

• Claim. There is a secondary claim that concedes that the evidence presented would justify citing JOGG, but only in specific cases where the JOGG articles being cited have also been cited by peer reviewed journals.

• Response. This argument is illogical. It is being claimed by the same Wikipedian that it is "bullshit" to say that academics think the JOGG is cite-able, and at the same time it is being conceded that in reality it is actually already being cited. It can not be both.
• In another way the claim has a reasonable core in it. Pretty much everyone agrees I think that the JOGG should be used as a lesser journal in strictly genetics areas, i.e. with caution, in anything which is core technical "genetics". If that is however the main argument, then the case should be considered closed. No one ever argued otherwise. If we understand however that the proposal being made is that the JOGG is a "questionable source" with no reputation for fact checking etc then no evidence has been presented anywhere for such a case, and indeed the opposite has been conceded?

• Claim. Quote: "Wikipedia cannot be the one to identify the knowledgeable amateurs, and there is no implication, let alone guarantee, that amateurs publishing in JOGG are ipso facto knowledgeable."

• Response. It is absolutely correct that "Wikipedia cannot be the one to identify the knowledgeable amateurs". That is why Wikipedia policy tells us not to try to decide this for ourselves, but rather just to work out whether a source has a good reputation and fact checking process. It is also absolutely correct that this policy gives no guarantees that authors are ever right. This is indeed one of the most difficult things for many people to accept about Wikipedia. What Wikipedia policy tells us to do is to take every significant source with a reputation for facts and fact checking, and from there it is up to editors to discuss due weight and find a consensus. (And if there are other concerns behind this, for example that there are some genetics articles using too much primary material and trying to keep too up-to-date that is for another forum and can not be handled in this discussion.)

• Claim. It was claimed that the words (of King and Jobling "lacks the standard scientific peer-review system of traditional journals" are an "explicit" "discounting" of the JOGG's editorial checking process.

• Response. This is discussed above at length. There simply is no such "explicit" comment, and the context obviously makes the opposite clear, stating that the JOGG is a "model" for non traditional "scientific" publication. There is only a contrast being made to make it clear that JOGG is not a "traditional" academic journal. (The same Wikipedian who made this claim went on to flame me about the use of the word "explicit" in an over-blown manner not realizing where the word had come into the conversation. I mention this only to avoid further misunderstanding continuing to grow.)

• Claim. A large amount of comment has been given to the claim that my re-factored response was "over blown" "bullshit" and "puffery" for the specific reason that I said that both Mark Jobling AND Turi King are "top" geneticists. Specifically it was argued that Turi King can not be referred to as "top" because being "Research Assistant" is not good enough.

• Response. I think these replies are wrong and also tendentious.
• First, frankly, who cares if there are one or two "top" geneticists? This has no bearing at all on Wikipedia policy. Turi King is a reliable source, notable, significant, etc. The article being discussed is certainly one of the most significant review articles in recent times in the whole field and Turi King is first named author of it. How long is a piece of string?
• Second, you can not judge such things by University position. In this relatively small field of human population genetics the Leicester team are maybe the second most respected in the world, and Turi King has been first author on a number of very well known articles already[53], and yes, my knowledge of the field does help me understand this.

2. Google Scholar.

• Claim. It was claimed that google scholar needs to be understood correctly in order to give the right understanding.

• Response. The important thing is whether JOGG articles are ever cited by peer reviewed journals. That was the claim supposedly being addressed. The quick answer is that yes, it is sometimes cited.

Extra Comment. As mentioned above, the response to my "re-formatted response" only covered a few side issues, and this should not be forgotten. Most of my re-formatted response attempted to address the original wording of the proposal as it was made here, which does seem important if this discussion is to have any meaning:

• A major part of the original proposal was that JOGG appeared to be a journal written by hobbyists pretending to be something that they are not. As evidence for this, snippets about the qualifications and careers of the editorial board were mentioned. Nearly all initial discussion in favor of the proposal took this remarkable presentation at face value. The relevance of such a way of proposing a case has been questioned in my re-formatted response in more detail, but another way of looking at this can be drawn from an example later made by the same proposing party in his discussion of the King-Jobling article and Google Scholar...
• Observation 1. The same person, Whit Athey although he is not named, is described by the proposing Wikipedian as both an example of why the JOGG should be treated as a questionable source run by hobbyists pretending they are something they are not, and then later, as a "special exemption" who is a cite-able source that has published in JOGG. This is a good way to see the problem with dividing the world into "hobbyists" and "real geneticists". Which one is Whit Athey? According to the original proposer, he is both. We could extend the twisted logic to say that actually, the editorial board contains "real geneticists" meaning that at least in the way the case was originally posed, it was simply wrong, and known to be wrong? But I do not suggest using this style of logic.
• Observation 2. This proposal was opened in conjunction with a deletion which was made from the R1a article of reference to two sources. One of those sources, Gwozdz, was a basic extension of an observation that had been previously been cited in a peer reviewed journal, and reference to this was ALSO deleted. The other was by Klyosov, who is a person whose articles and correspondence have appeared in other journals. Both references seem to be in the categories conceded to be acceptable by the proposed of this original case. I think it is always very illuminating to look at the real examples when discussion gets bogged down!
• Summary. The JOGG is cited by peer reviewed experts, and respected for containing correct information including useful discoveries. It also has an editorial process for fact checking and does not meet the requirements of a self published source or any other type of questionable source. The concessions made to these points now effectively concede everything which is relevant to Wikipedia policy concerning questionable v. reliable, and leave the problems in the court of finding due weights in specific cases.
• Practical. The JOGG contains a wide range of article types. I would like to ask others if they there is really any practical disagreement with the following practical proposals, so we can close this case...

• Some might be considered primary material, and as the JOGG is not perhaps recognized as a top journal for all types of primary genetics research this needs to be handled carefully. No one claims otherwise.
• Particular areas of primary discussion where it might occasionally claim some specialization would of course be in areas like surname studies, and other basic summaries of volunteer project (where meeting any notability or significance requirements of course). Perhaps these are arguably "genetic genealogy" anyway.
• It also contains secondary material: review articles and articles which give multi-disciplinary perspectives. These are helpful in a small number of cases around Wikipedia.
• It also contains some of the best articles anywhere about Genetic genealogy, which is the concern of User:DinDraithou who has an interest in Irish dynasties and history, which is a field currently very much affected by genetic genealogy. That R1a is a topic involving genetic genealogy is I think already conceded by everyone.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I would modify the above to " the JOGG is not recognized as a leading academic journal in human population genetics. Despite that, some areas of discussion where its research articles might be considered reasonable sources are... " (and then continue as written) DGG (talk) 08:37, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is a fair characterization and a good suggestion. MarmadukePercy (talk) 01:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(Sigh. Yet another load. Just one example, to convey the nature of the rest, a mass of misrepresentation, fallacy and special pleading posturing as argument: The King-Jobling article did not call JOGG a "model for public involvement in scientific publication". They called JOGG an "interesting model for public involvement in scientific publication". And so it goes. on and on. Wikipedia:TLDR? Yes, the favored technique seems to have worked.) rudra (talk) 20:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Nature of this discussion and the various conflicts of interest

Declare conflicts of Interest first. 1. Andrew Lancaster has published a review article in JOGG - he should have declared this first. 2. I have refereed articles for JOGG which are now published.

I should state for the record that the article that I reviewed for JOGG I did with the same rigor and scrutiny I would for an article in the Protein Journal or any other journal that I frequently referee articles for. The article is published, and I have found in other mainstream journals dealing with molecular genetics of lower quality than the article I critiqued. I should also point out that typically when one has such as big problem as Rudra does with Sharma et al, that he should send a letter to the editor detailing the deficiencies of the paper such that erratum can be written.

I think Andrew Lancaster has a conflict of interest in his promotion of JOGG, if not in spirit. The Klyosov articles were not in a standard scientific form and read more like a manifesto than a primary literature article. As critical articles they serve their function, but in terms of form, they remind me of the JHE 33 article by John Langdon on the Aquatic Ape Theory. Don't beat down one guys extreme POV simply to promote another extreme POV, otherwise the only valid point is the critique.

The critical issue here, IMHO, is not the articles but WP editors and in particular one editor, Andrew Lancaster. When an editor references a particular paper (In the case of Klyosov 2 back to back papers) even with the backdrop that the author of the article -- previously slammed in a mainstream field specific journal for publishing in obscure journals (non-English) and amateur journals and using not-previously defined technique -- creates 7+ paragraphs in an article based on that one authors paper, one exceeds a reasonable use of the amatuer literature. I am fine with Klyosovs critique of with regard to the Zhirotofsky method, and as a matter fact the premise they based their technique on, that all Y lines fuse about 60 ka, based on most recent publications, appears to be in error. HOwever, Andrew took this beyond critique to promoting Klyosovs results, and blocking my efforts to reduce Klyosov's 'personal research'. This included passages in the article that were obviously in error because klyosov promoted a point of view by cherry picking sample populations. There are many aspects of Klyosov's paper that Andrew presented that fall into the category of unreliable resources. Many have now been removed all but a reference, but there is an implication that Klyosov and Underhill agree. This is not actually true, Underhill and Sharma detected far more diversity with their much large sample in SOuth Asia that Klyosov credits, and for the diversity Klyosov does observe he sources this as admiture from 2 difference sources. The Amateur nature of JOGG is but one factor, other factors should include the controvertible nature of the authors methods or beliefs, it should include a fair balance relative of other articles based on their thoroughness. This is not to the point of excluding Klyosov's belief, however back in Janauary is was very clear Klyosov was overrepresented, to an extreme.PB666 ^yap 09:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

How perfect does science need to be?

Rudra, and the issue of Sharma et al. I have gone over his table. Having reconstituted data from similar tables for HLA studies I know exactly were he is coming from. The problem is how nitpicky does one want to get. 3.13 (2/64) versus 3.33. Yes this is an error, there are in fact many errors in Sharma et al. 2009, I pointed out these problems, probably first, back in December 2009. As discussed previously the editor of the journal did a poor job on verifying the readability of the article. Beyond the drawbacks of this are there any merits, particularly as a source of critique.

1. First they did detect R1a (2009-R1a1) in 2 groups in India which Underhill did not detect.

2. They did detect R1* and R* (xR2) and in some case R1* (xR1b) indicating at least the potential that there are M420, and other xR1a1 R1 and R1a markers in India.

I can give a comparable example of a paper with similar flaws that for better or worse is widely used. The paper is Klitz et al. 2003, a typing of 1899 Caucasian Americans for HLA Class II. In my work I heavily rely on this paper and it is probably on the best, the reason is sample size

a. The absolute frequencies are not _always_ whole numbers. Haplotype resolution appears to have faulted in a few instances.

b. The Allelegroup DQA1*03 is not resolved. DQA1*0303 is listed under DQA1*0302, DQA1*0501 is listed under DQA1*0505.

Here is the problem, in 2007 Klitz, with Meiars typed 13,000 with this new database of DRB1-DQB1 haplotypes it was possible to rule out certain haplotypes that were _fractional_ numbers.

The basic problem with Rudra is that he wants the science to be perfect, he expects near-perfect papers. Read Nature 463, 536-539 (28 January 2010) | doi:10.1038/nature08700. You are not going to see a perfect or near-perfect Y-DNA paper, at least not for some time, until the major players in the field fess up to deficiencies in the style of research they are doing. While we scientist can correct results from old papers, we cannot correct old data in wikipedia even if the authors followup papers allow (but do not provide) the correction because of WP:SYNTH rules. In fact I was criticized for conditioning an authors results when he stated he subjective chose a reference date in a range, both the branch points, the reference date and reference date range were in the same paper. That is simply because some editors . . . . .

If future publications of Sharma can correct 'obsolescent weaknesses' and major oversights then I think it is worthy to be included now, however, one has to be very judicious about what one does include. As pointed out some of the tables have confusing legends that may result in a bad edit. Other parts as pointed above have errors.PB666 ^yap 09:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

The attitude war that never ends

Lets take the constant reference to Crap, Bullshit (Pages) and other off-color remarks. Andrew should refrain from making condescending remarks and constantly telling people to Stop! and raising these character assassination issues, as pointed out. Andrew is very frustrating and stubborn, lets leave it at that. We would go a long way here if we could end the WP:IDIDNTHERE issues that plagues many editors on these pages. This is not only directed at Andrew. Rudra, WP has guidelines, there are articles presented in Nature, Science and PNAS that are worse than the articles mentioned in the section. Sometimes articles in these journals are not properly referred. The fact that JOGG at least solicits some referees means that some of their papers may have value. By some standards JOGG is suitable at a level that is a standardize point of reference (like a newspaper article on science or Sykes '7 daughters of Eve'). I should make a point about the USENET, I was a member of several groups, starting back in 1989 and up until 2006. The USENET has essentially died (for science group, most of the serious folks left with the growth of Yahoo (moderated) groups. The reason the USENET science groups have essentially died except as loon colonies is quite simple, the use of trickery, dupery, non-compromising attitudes and a overwhelming desire of people to win flame wars over providing content and run open-ended vendetta's. In one group I was in, sci.archaeology adding actual content was treated as a distraction over fighting viking ghosts. The point about the USENET is this, when people are free to do as they see fit, the worst possible outcome can be expected. If you want WP to die, treat it like the USENET. If you like WP, then self-moderate. I should point out that since I was dragged into the Y-wars last summer it has been a constant battle and POV problems, trying to bring R1a (one of many pages) to a WP:MOS standards makes tooth extraction seem fun. The grand hesitancy in several individuals to make articles simply encyclopedic (as evidenced by just about all the Y-DNA pages) is a good indication of a pervasive attitude that is in conflict of interest with the goals of the encyclopedia.

In response to one critique, I put in a great effort to get outside review of the R1a page, we need it because similar issues exist for many Y-DNA pages. Andrew did everything he possibly could do to obstruct the process and by recommendation here I placed this up for review within the Cell Biology project. DGG, Dab, all.... Alot of this war was blamed on me, but I have not been editing for 2 months, these players who keep your noticeboards lit up are the ones you should be scrutinizing. R1a is a turf war, and the principle WP:OWN issues revolve around a single individual. Like Dab I do sympathize with Rudra on the overuse of marginal sources, but if one editor goes about reverting your every edit what can one do. Fortunately for me Norton Ghost took my hard-drive on a trip to never-never land, but alas all good things must come to an end. I'm back.

IOW folks, y'all need to use some editorial judgment.PB666 ^yap 09:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

www.americanboardofsportpsychology.org

Hi, User:BruceGrubb is wanting to use Terry Sandbek, Ph.D. "Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading" Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology as a source on Multi-level Marketing. The site is ostensibly a peer-reviewed journal however the "journal" appears to consist of a sum total of 8 articles appearing only on the rather unprofessional looking website [54] and the document in question doesn't even appear to be one of those. The "journal" itself seems to have racked up a sum total of one citation, in an obscure Pakistani journal [55]. Given the article in question is (a) not by an expert in, or about, the topic in question (multilevel marketing) (b) probably not peer-reviewed and (c) not in a journal of any standing even if it was, it would appear to me to clearly fail Wikipedia:RS. Comments appreciated. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:38, 19 February 2010 (UTC) ETA: I found the article in question listed here on the website. It's a "position paper" and listed with other opinion-type pieces. As noted, it's not listed in the "journal" articles section [56] --Insider201283 (talk) 23:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

contrary to what Insider201283 thinks a badly designed web site does not translate into unscholarly. The actual Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology site clearly states: "The Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology is a peer reviewed journal devoted to disseminating scientific and popular research-based articles in an efficient and timely manner. The Journal also publishes technical reports, editorials, opinions, special features, and letters to the editors, as well as classified and other advertising. Peer-reviewed articles are posted in PDF format, requiring that you have ADOBE Reader. If not you can download it for free at www.adobe.com."

Worse for Insider201283 a link to the American Board of Sport Psych. is provided by Adams State College http://www.adams.edu/academics/sportpsych/ who has the following accreditations: North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCA-HLC) Accreditation, Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE); Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP); and National Association of Schools of Music (NASM), Commission on Accreditation.

Carlstedt PhD, Roland A. (Editor) (2009) Handbook of Integrative Clinical Psychology, Psychiatry, and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices, and Research Springer Publishing Company ("Springer Publishing Company is extremely proud of our history -- publishing academic and professional works for more than 50 years.") on page 3 clearly states that Carlstedt has published articles in The Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology and Biofeedback, Cortex, Brain and Cognition.

So an accredited college recommends it and a publisher who had been publishing academic and professional works for more than 50 years uses it as why an author of its Handbook of Integrative Clinical Psychology, Psychiatry, and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices, and Research is trustworthy. Oh just in case Insider201283 regales us with some other nonsense Springer Publishing Company also puts out A Guide to the Standard EMDR Protocols for Clinicians, Supervisors, and Consultants, Chemistry and Physics for Nurse Anesthesia: A Student Centered Approach, Handbook of Forensic Neuropsychology, Second Edition, and EMDR and the Art of Psychotherapy With Children: Treatment Manual and Text just to mention a few.

Talk about major egg on the face. Sheesh Insider201283 do you even know how to do actual research before posting this nonsense?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

egg on the face indeed ... your own quote above says "The Journal also publishes technical reports, editorials, opinions, special features, and letters to the editors,.... Peer-reviewed articles are posted in PDF format"'. All other matters of reliability aside, what format is the Sandbek article in Bruce? --Insider201283 (talk) 00:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, it is in word but thes Journal also states--

RATINGS:

(*) for the researcher and practitioner (more technical/scientific)PEER-REVIEWED

(**) for coaches and athletes (research-based but less technical/more applied)

(***) research based popular article (written with the lay person in mind)

It is clear that not all PEER-REVIEWED papers were in PDF format as the

American Psychological Association Divisions 47 and 6 (Behavioral Neuroscience) 2004 Convention Symposium: Integrative Sport Psychology (*,**) Presented Papers section only one of the six papers is in the PDF format. All the rest are in powerpoint format even though the one star (*) denotes all as "for the researcher and practitioner (more technical/scientific)PEER-REVIEWED" and then you have three star (***) articles in PDF format even though the ratings only expressly states that one star articles are PEER-REVIEWED. I am inclined to trust the star ratings rather than the format especially as PEER-REVIEWED is in all caps and bolded.--BruceGrubb (talk) 01:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, I note again, even if one accepted it was a prestigious well known peer-reviewed journal, and clearly relevant to MLM (neither of which are true) the article in question is not even listed on the journal page. The front page of the site says "Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology Inaugural Issue now Available", and following that link gives a page that does NOT include the Sandbek article [57]. The Sandbek article is instead listed at the bottom of the home page under "articles". Having an asterisk beside an article saying "peer-reviewed" on a clearly amateur website does not make something a reliable source. --Insider201283 (talk) 02:06, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Not listed on the journal page?!? Are you blind?!? "BE SURE TO SCROLL DOWN TO SEE ALL CONTENT" The entire page is the journal!

You have 'Sport Psychology in the News' followed by a book review followed by "ARTICLES ETC. (see Library below for Download)" and the very first thing you hit is

POSITION PAPER #1 on BRAIN TYPING

1. [*, **] Pseudoscience of Brain Typing by Terry Sandbek, Ph.D.HIGHLY RECOMMENDED article on Critical Thinking in Sport Psychology

IT IS THE VERY FIRST ARTICLE YOU COME TO!!! It is ranked as PEER REVIEWED in bold caps due to the one star (*) and then it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED also in bold caps in the text right next to it. How on earth do you miss that?!?

In the download section that says "SPORT PSYCHOLOGY ARTICLES" Sandbek article is the last one on page one (assuming 10 pages).--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Can you be specific as to what statements the paper in question needs to support? Different statements get held to different standards, there isn't such a thing as an expert on every subject (well, possibly Da Vinci or Asimov; but they're dead). Having a Journal and a PhD is nice in general, but what does sports medicine have to do with Multi-level marketing? --GRuban (talk) 00:17, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

The claim made in the WP article, based on Sandbek, is Another charge is "By its very nature, MLM is completely devoid of any scientific foundations."--Insider201283 (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Straight from the paper: "In the following article our author Dr. Terry Sandbek addresses Brain Typing and pseudoscience in Sport Psychology." The just of the article regarding MLM begins in the section "Brain Typing as a Product" subsection "Multilevel Marketing (MLM)" which has this lead in right before it: "None of them have any direct link to applied science or scientific research. Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking, his two previous ventures, have no connection to findings within the scientific community."

Sandbek then sites one MLM critical website after the other for about two pages. Not only are Taylor, FitzPatrick, and Vanduff here but so are Lanford and Barrett. Sandbek then goes into "Pop Psychology of Positive Thinking" which tangentally touches on the methods MLMs use. Then you hit "The pseudoscientist uses testimonials as evidence." and the whole pseudoscience dynamic which is not just part of Brain typing but also Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking.--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Yup, he cites multiple non-RS websites as his sources. You're not helping your case Bruce. Let's just wait for some more 3rd party opinions hey? --Insider201283 (talk) 02:35, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Insider201283 claimed this before but the fact is one of these sources are referenced in a Juta Academic publication and Taylor is referenced four times in Cruz's peer reviewed 2008 "A System Dynamics Model for Studying the Structure of Network Marketing Organizations". In short Sandbek is not a one trick pony and there are other reliable sources that use these people or their sites as references.--BruceGrubb (talk) 03:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

This RS/N request is with regard Sandbek as an RS. If you want to query others, post them for discussion. --Insider201283 (talk) 14:03, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Insider, but it was YOU who brought up the "non-RS websites" claim and so made it relevant the issue of Sandbek being an RS. The main page is referenced by an accredited college on their web page and is used a expertise qualifier on another book published by Springer Publishing Company.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, this page is to get others opinions on the source in question, not for back and forth bickering. Let's wait for more 3rd party opinions. --Insider201283 (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Aha. Now it makes sense. From reading the paper, Sandbek is criticizing one specific person, Jon Niednagel, who is apparently is trying to do something called Brain Typing which has something to do with Sport Psychology (hence the sports medicine connection). As one of his criticisms, Sandbek mentions that Niednagel was involved with MLM. The sentence in context is:

Such is the case with Brain Typing. Mr. Niednagel is quick to claim a scientific basis for his product but is unable to offer any solid evidence that it is based on any scientific principles. This is not surprising when we look at the types of businesses that he has promoted in the last few decades. None of them have any direct link to applied science or scientific research. Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking, his two previous ventures, have no connection to findings within the scientific community.

The article, including the quoted sentence, is primarily a criticism of Niednagel specifically, not of MLM in general, and I suspect Sandbek would reject any claims of being an expert on MLM in general. Not appropriate for the MLM article. If we have an article on Brain Typing or Niednagel, it would be a good source there, but MLM is much bigger than Niednagel.

That said, however, surely there is no lack of better sources to criticise MLM. Consumer advocates, attorneys general, economists, all those would be much better critics than sports medicine experts. --GRuban (talk) 21:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

While the article is mainly critical of Niednagel the section of the article in question is critical of MLMs in general. In fact the lead in right before the relevant section expressly states "None of them have any direct link to applied science or scientific research. Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking, his two previous ventures, have no connection to findings within the scientific community." then we have some two page worth of material on MLMs in general finishing up with the conclusion "By its very nature, MLM is completely devoid of any scientific foundations." (the quoted piece). This section is focused on how reliable the MLM model itself is. This along with the rest of the paper when through the peer review process and it if wasn't usable it would have never been allowed.

This is akin to saying because Higgs, Philip (2007) Rethinking Our World Juta Academic ("Juta is respected as South Africa's pre-eminent academic and law publisher") is mainly on philosophy that all its comments about MLMs are useless. MLMs have been called cults as far back as 1985 (related in a Western Journal of Communication 2003 article and so itself based on RS) and cults are something that is in the realm of both philosophy and psychology and Sandbek is an expert in psychology.

As for better sources that are critical of MLMs Insider201283 has tried to keep those out too. He claimed Cruz (2008) was not peer reviewed even though I had clearly stated it was (and later proving it was). He said an article by no less than The Times was not a reliable source (see the end of Talk:Multi-level marketing/Archive 2#Multitude_of_self-published_source for that insanity). He tried to imply a Religion Dispatches piece date February 11, 2009 some how predated an ISP article dated Jan 28, 2009 to keep it out. The claim of ""basic mathematics shows" is code for "I'm talking about pyramid schemes, not MLM"" regarding the "The False Lure of Multi-Level Marketing" By David John Marotta Aug 3, 2009 article which appeared in various papers including the Central New York Business Journal is typical of the nonsense we have seen on the talk page.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Amazingly, on this very page Bruce is telling another editor that an author should be an expert in the main area of the article. With regards other sources, there are actually very few quality sources "critical" of MLM, it's the internet gossip columnists that primarily drive that aspect of the conversation. Actual business experts understand the difference between MLMs and Pyramids and don't accuse MLMs of having the failings of pyramids. That's *why* Wikipedia requires quality sources - so that myths based on poor knowledge or understanding are not spread. I will challenge poor sources no matter what their POV, and as already noted I've also challenged the use of some pro-MLM sources that do not pass muster as RS/V. There *are* plenty of RS sources available, there's no reason not to stick to them.--Insider201283 (talk) 14:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Bruce, I don't buy it. Note the word "his" in your quote there. Note the article title: "Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading". Note the Editor's Note at the top of the article, "In the following article our author Dr. Terry Sandbek addresses Brain Typing and pseudoscience in Sport Psychology." All of those point to the author not focusing on MLM in general, but this one practitioner of it, merely tarring that practitioner by association with MLM. Sandbek has lots of other references there as to why MLM is bad, so you can try and use those directly, but they're not Sandbek. Sandbek himself has one sentence in there of his own that could, out of context, be read as critical of MLM in general without mentioning his real target, but that's not the point of the piece, so shouldn't be used for a fairly strong attack on MLM in general. --GRuban (talk) 15:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Use Talyor, Fiztpatric, and Vandruff directly? But Insider201283 is fighting those references too! He is even fighting references that appear in Wiley and Sage with "stating something is "a legal pyramid scheme" is a clear oxymoron and clear evidence the author is NOT a reliable source on the topic." garbage. He defends Wiley with Rubino but when anti-MLM stuff by Carroll (2003) and Coenen (2009) in the exact same publication appear we get this "clear evidence the author is NOT a reliable source on the topic" garbage.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:03, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Gruban - Taylor, FitzPatrick, and Vandruff are self-published websites by people with no RS published work in the area, they have all been previously rejected on RS/N. Bruce has however managed to get around this limitation by finding a peer-reviewed paper that mentions their opinions briefly in an intro and then simply quoting the paper. I personally think that's against the spirit of RS, but so far he has consensus support.--Insider201283 (talk) 14:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent)Gruban - Insider201283 is again engaging in a half truth. User:Arthur Rubin on the talk page and User:TheEditor22 on the RS/NS felt that Taylor, FitzPatrick, and Vandruff could be used as they were cited so many times in peer reviewed papers (including one that Insider201283 claimed was and was called on the carpet for that responded with "For someone to cite it, based only on a webpage, and have that accepted in peer review? A tragic example of poor standards.") as well as in reliable publishers such as Juta Academic not to mention the McGeorge Law Review which using Taylor as a reference stated "Day after day, however, many Americans and others around the world4 fall prey to a similar type of deception—supposed “business opportunities” in which 99.9 percent of investors lose money." User:Jakew left the RS/NS discussion just a little after User:TheEditor22 came on and you note on his User talk:TheEditor22 who had been temporarily banned for using sock puppetry and other things to keep a reliable source by Fox News that Insider kept arguing for the removal of in the ACN Inc. article. Based on the last poster in that it was two against one that they were RS.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, I provided a link to the discussion on RS/N where I posted fitzpatrick and taylor's websites. I can find no other discussions about pyramidschemealert.org[58] nor mlm-thetruth.com[59]. The only place I can find Vandruff references is your comments here [60]. If you have other RS/N discussion, please post a link to it. I'd note, again, that TheEditor22 was banned from WP for, if I recall correctly, a single purpose disruptive account, threats, and sockpuppetry (not to mention identity fraud) so I wound't exactly hang my coat on his opinion. The fact remins they are all self-published websites by non-experts on the topic of the article. --Insider201283 (talk) 13:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see there's a can of worms there. I didn't look at those references specifically, hence my word "try". This question is about whether an article by a sport psychologist in a sport psychology magazine focusing on criticizing a specific project by a specific person who happened to have participated in MLM in his past is a reliable source for a very strong criticism of all MLM, and my answer to that is "no". --GRuban (talk) 14:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

But Sandbek's foundation of argument against Niednagel is based on the premise that the two things (Multilevel Marketing and Positive Thinking) Niednagel has been involved with have no direct link to applied science or scientific research. If those premises don't work then his conclusion also doesn't work--so he argument agains MLMs has to work for his argument against Niednagel to work.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

if the quotation is as reported, then it's useless. It's not part of the scholarship in the article, but just a passing comment. DGG (talk) 22:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually the quotation is the conclusion of about two full pages of analysis so some degree of scholarship was involved.--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Brief Chronicles

Is the Oxfordian journal Brief Chronicles considered to be a reliable source for the Wikipedia Shakespeare authorship question article? It focuses on a Fringe theory, the Shakespeare authorship question, from an Oxfordian perspective (i.e. the assumption that Edward deVere, the 17th Earl of Oxford, was the true author of the Shakespeare canon). See the focus and scope statement.

Reading the “about” page, it is apparent that the journal was planned and carefully constructed to give the impression of a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal. However, the publication is controlled by general editor Dr. Roger Stritmatter, an Oxfordian whose commitment to spreading the gospel is well known to Wikipedia Shakespeare editors, and the 12-member board includes at least 10 identified Oxfordians, such as Dr. Michael Delahoyde of Washington State University and Dr. Richard Waugaman of the Georgetown University of Medicine and Washington Psychoanalytic Institute. While the accomplishments of these people should not be disparaged, they believe in a fringe theory (which is not all that unusual among certain percentage of academics) and participate on the board of a publication devoted to promoting a theory well outside the accepted scholarly consensus.

In its inaugural number, Brief Chronicles published 10 articles, ostensibly chosen by a double-blind peer review. Coincidentally, three of the 10 were authored by members of the editorial board. They included such articles as “The Psychology of the Authorship Question,” which according to the abstract, “Employs a historical/psychoanalytical model to understand why so many academicians are resistant to rationale [sic] discourse on the authorship question”; “Francis Meres and the Earl of Oxford”, which supposedly “Analyzes the numerical structure of Francis Meres' 1598 Palladis Tamia to show that Meres not only knew that Oxford and Shakespeare were one and the same, but that he constructed his publication to carefully alert the reader to this fact” (and incidentally marks the Oxfordian descent into cryptic number puzzles that formerly were the sole province of Baconism); and “Edward de Vere's Hand in Titus Andronicus”.

I believe that Wikipedia:PARITY applies to this publication, especially the sentence, "Note that fringe journals exist, some of which claim peer review. Only a very few of these actually have any meaningful peer review outside of promoters of the fringe theories, and should generally be considered unreliable. Examples: The Creation Science Quarterly, Homeopathy, Journal of Frontier Science . . . and many others." Tom Reedy (talk) 03:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

As I see from their editorial board [[61]] Brief Chronicles is obviously a peer reviewed journal with high standards. The editor in chief is Gary Goldstein, former editor and publisher of The Elizabethan Review, a semi-annual peer reviewed journal published from 1993 to 1999 on the English Renaissance. The rest of the editorial team has similar credentials. If that were not enough, the journal will be indexed by the Modern Language Association International Bibliography and the World Shakespeare Bibliography. Definitely RS. Smatprt (talk) 04:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The Elizabethan Review was no more Wikipedia:RS than this publication. Its board was made up of much the same type of partisans as the one under discussion here. I don't understand why Oxfordians believe that any publication in a true peer-reviewed journal at any time confers the magic wand of credibility to all subsequent activities, but it appears they do. Tom Reedy (talk) 15:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Smatprt that Brief Chronicles is a peer reviewed journal with high standards. The editorial board is made up entirely of people with credible academic credentials. Both the editor in chief and executive editor have impressive track records. Those bringing this challenge ignore the fact that the journal will be indexed by the Modern Language Association International Bibliography and the World Shakespeare Bibliography. The journal clearly meets RS requirements. Schoenbaum (talk) 06:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, Schoenbaum, you seem to be a new Wikipedia:SPA with few edits, all but one to the talk page of the authorship article.

Smatprt will recall a related discussion here [62] from last year. Dougweller (talk) 10:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I do remember that discussion. At the time, this board looked at the credentials of the editorial team, asking relevant questions about their expertise. I would hope that a similar exercise is involved here.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Both Smatprt and Schoenbaum are SPA editors whose sole activity on Wikipedia is to promote Oxfordianism. They are not in any way independent commentators. I am not independent either, since I am an active contributor to the page with a bias against Oxfordianism. However I consider that to be no different from my "bias" against fringe theories in general, as this "bias" is the bias of Wikipedia itself. It seems clear to me that this is a journal dedicated to a fringe theory set up and staffed by proponents of a fringe theory. It is no different from Creationist journals that can boast PhDs on their boards. The important thing is that this journal does not accept articles purely on the basis of their academic worth, to be reviewed by those scholars who are best qualified to assess them, irrespective of whether or not they agree with the article's ideological position. Paul B (talk) 10:49, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I would ask that Paul (and others) actually look at my editing history. I am hardly a SPA editor, having made over 6000 edits to close to 100 articles, ranging from Shakespeare to West Side Story. I would ask Paul to rescind his statement.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I would agree. Look at his editing history. The last time he edited an article not obviously related to Shakespeare authorship was on the 7th feb, when he added this to Historical revisionism. Paul B (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't look like a mainstream academic journal since it doesn't have a publisher like Sage, Taylor & Francis, Oxford etc. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The page is deeply troubled, and probably cannot be edited to wikipedian standards, because there is an editorial block by a group which is actively promoting by its edits the fringe theory. Most of the text is sourced to articles and books that, in academic terms, are not RS, but are RS for the fringe theories, being examples of them. Attempts to introduce proper RS on crucial questions in the lead leads to endless blather. There are 57 candidates for an alternative Shakespeare, each with a coterie of passionate fans, but here the de Vere school, and Diana Price are showcased, in a way that smacks of promotion.

The Wikipedia:SPA editors who have entered the fray don't appear to show any interest in the wider work on wikipedia. On an article dealing with borderline, fringe ideas, one needs several experienced hands who have a thorough understanding of the rules to prevent gaming. This won't occur.

Wikipedia:PARITY, as Tom notes, affirms that 'fringe journals exist, some of which claim peer review. Only a very few of these actually have any meaningful peer review outside of promoters of the fringe theories, and should generally be considered unreliable.' That reallyshould clinch it. The operation looks fraudulent.

The article is ranked of high importance. Why a fringe theory with 'virtually no' academic support should merit a 'high importance' tag is unclear.

In lieu of concrete measures, the best solution would be to leave it to the SPA block, but impose of them a requirement that their present hyperactivism be focused to bringing the page up to GA level review within a month or two, and then get experienced GA reviewers who know both wikipedia policies and the Elizabethan period, or Shakespeare, to examine the quality of their work. As it is, this looks like a page that will have a huge volume of talk page edits and chats reflecting stalemate between proponents of mainstream scholarship and representatives of the fringe theory, with no significant measures of improvement towards the minimal requirements stipulated by the policies adumbrated in Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:RS, and Wikipedia:FRINGE etc.Nishidani (talk) 11:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Again, I am hardly an SPA editor. The rest of this post is troublesome as well. Accusations such as "fraudulent" really have no place here. Nishidani also knows full well that the article has been going through a major clean-up, line-by-line in some cases, which he is a participating in, though he has spent much time arguing endlessly with his own team over using "a" instead of "the". I also question why he would attack such researchers such as Diana Price when his own team-member, Tom Reedy, was the editor who suggested using Ms. Price's work in the article.(Ms. Price, by the way, is not an Oxfordian, but is anti-Stratfordian). All this is, of course, off topic. Can we get back to looking at the qualifications of the editorial board and such requirements as the double-blind review process which the journal employs?.

Is there any editor of this journal who is not an Oxfordian or, *gasp*, a Stratfordian? Inquiring minds want to know. ScienceApologist (talk) 12:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If there's anything Oxfordians hate more than a Stratfordian, it's a Baconian. You might find tentative tolerance of Derbyites. Paul B (talk) 13:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The only "hate" involved, as evidenced on the talk page, is that exhibited by Stratfordians. Mainstream stratfordians, such as Alan Nelson, even appear at various authorship conferences where they are welcomed openly. Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

All but two of the 12 members are open, admitted Oxfordians. Explicit information about the authorship sympathies of the other two, Carole Chaski and Donald Otrowski, is harder to come by, but Chaski has worked with Stritmatter on another project concerning Herman Melville, and Otrowski appears in an anti-Stratfordian documentary that I have not seen and his Harvard English class has been cited by some as the beginning of their interest in Oxfordism. I'm sure Dr. Stritmatter, who is a very active editor on the page in question, could enlighten us. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

"Chaski has worked with Stritmatter on another project concerning Herman Melville". Isn't this simply guilt by association?Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a suggestion: you might want to limit comments by involved editors to one or two at the most. If you don't, a look at his editing and discussion history shows that Smatprt will deluge the discussion with irrelevant and tendentious posts that will effectively obfuscate any honest discussion or consensus on the issue by uninvolved editors. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom - you've already posted, what, six or seven edits? This is my second edit, caused mostly by the false accusations being made about my being an SPA (way off base) and other off-topic comments made by your team.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to answer this from a different point of view; I'm going to agree with both sides. :-). Side "A", above, seems to be saying that the journal, publishers and review board, is full of people from one side of a fourfive-way argument, so it's biased. Side "B" seems to be saying that the journal is full of people with Doctorates from respected schools, so it's reliable. I'm going to say you're all right. A source can be both reliable and biased. The article Shakespeare authorship question is specifically about the controversy, so it is a perfectly appropriate place where a journal published and reviewed by highly titled Oxfordians should be cited to explain Oxfordian views; it seems a perfectly reliable source for that branch of scholarship. That said, these views should be appropriately tagged with the caveat that these are the views of Oxfordians, not of all or most Shakespearian scholars in general, since Stratfordians, Baconians, Lettucians and Tomatovians may well differ. --GRuban (talk) 15:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So IOW, the journals Wikipedia:PARITY use as examples, The Creation Science Quarterly, Homeopathy, Journal of Frontier Science, can all be used as reliable sources for the Wikipedia articles on creation science, homeopathy, and flying saucers because they have Phds supporting them? Is that what you're saying? Because that sure sounds like what you're saying. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, as long as the statements therein are not presented as facts, but as the views of the people making the statements as reasonable representatives of the side in question. You will notice that that is exactly what is done in the specific articles you bring up:

• Creation Science#Notes includes The Vanishing Case for Evolution, Henry M. Morris, Institute for Creation Research; Howe, G. F.; Froede, C. R. .J.r. (1999). "The Haymond Formation Boulder Beds, Marathon Basin, West Texas: Theories On Origins And Catastrophism". Creation Research Society Quarterly Journal 36 (1).; Froede, Carl R. Jr (1995). "Stone Mountain Georgia: A Creation Geologist's Perspective". Creation Research Society Quarterly 31 (4).; Howe, George F.; Froede, Carl R. Jr (1999). "The Haymond Formation Boulder Beds, Marathon Basin, West Texas: Theories On Origins And Catastrophism". Creation Research Society Quarterly 36 (1).; Phillip Johnson. "The Wedge", Touchstone: A Journal of Mere Christianity. July/August 1999.; the Evolution Debate Can Be Won. Phillip Johnson. Truths that Transform; Get Answers: Created Kinds (Baraminology), Answers in Genesis; and so forth.
• Homeopathy#Notes and references includes Hahnemann S (1833/1921), The Organon of the Healing Art; Mathie RT (2003), "The research evidence base for homeopathy: a fresh assessment of the literature", Homeopathy 92 (2): 84–91, PMID 12725250; Caulfield T, Debow S (2005), "A systematic review of how homeopathy is represented in conventional and CAM peer reviewed journals", BMC Complement Altern Med 5: 12, doi:10.1186/1472-6882-5-12, PMID 15955254; King S, "Miasms in homeopathy", Classical homeopathy; and so forth.

I'll stop there before checking the article on flying saucers, but I'll be shocked if it doesn't have any references from people who claim to have been abducted by aliens; it would be a fairly useless article without them, no? No offense, but the same applies here. It wouldn't be a very useful article about Shakespeare authorship question if it couldn't cite the reasoning of the questioners. --GRuban (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Umm, the question was whether it was a reliable source, not whether it is a source that can be used per Wikipedia:FRINGE. Paul B (talk) 11:34, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

And the answer was, yes, it is a reliable source to explain Oxfordian views, which is the point in question. There is no such thing as "a reliable source" without context. This entire noticeboard all about whether a source can be used to back a specific point in a specific article. Surely you would not expect to take the most definitive "yes" answer about the journal here, and use it as justification to use the journal as a reference for an article on nuclear physics, or Indonesian politics, or global warming? ---GRuban (talk) 18:38, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. There is no such thing as "a reliable source to explain Oxfordian views". That's not what "reliable source" means. Why don’t you read what it says at the top of the page? "Editors can post questions here about whether given sources are reliable". That is the sole purpose of this board, and that was the question that was asked by Tom at the top of this section. Your remark about nuclear physics is both ridiculous and utterly irrelevant. Even the most reliable source on any topic is not reliable for a wholly different one. That's blindingly obvious. We are talking about what's reliable for Shakespeare studies. You don't seem to understand the concept of "reliable source". The fact that an unreliable source can be used in some articles is quite different from saying that it's a reliable source for that or any other article. There are different rules concerning the use of unreliable and reliable sources within articles. Paul B (talk) 22:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, if you've read this board for any length of time, you would have noticed that the question "is this source reliable" is met with: in what context? for what statement? to cite what? Reliability is not absolute, but depends on context. (That's from Wikipedia:RS, by the way.) If the context is "Shakespeare studies" in general, then I can buy the argument that the journal shouldn't be treated as the mainstream view. However, it seems the article in question is specifically about (5 ... if I have the number right now ...) different points of view in Shakespeare studies, which are, by definition, outside the mainstream. Am I wrong? --GRuban (talk) 22:40, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you are wrong to say that it is a "reliable source" for the Authorship article. To make an extreme analogy, that would be like saying that Mein Kampf is a reliable source for the Adolf Hitler article. Mein Kampf an be quoted and footnoted to explain Hitler's opinions, but it is not a reliable source which can be used for, say, factual statements. It can be used in certain conditions, but only reliable sources on Hitler can be used in others. I think that's the crucial point here - reliability determines how certain sources can be used. Paul B (talk) 17:10, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, rather than argue in the abstract, let's see what the specific statements it is being used to back are. --GRuban (talk) 23:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable and I am confidant (and would work to insure) that any edits would be appropriately tagged.Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

This is the kind of response that makes an Oxfordian's heart sing. It's based on the assumption that there is serious scholarly debate, of which this journal is one POV (out of "four" apparently. Where does that number come from?). That is to treat a fringe view as if it were mainstream. If there were genuine academic debate Oxfordians (and presumably proponents of the other "three" positions) would be able to get their theories published within mainstream academic journals. That's what happens when there is a real academic debate between different points of view. It's like saying that there are several views about the origin of the grand Canyon: it was created by Divine Wrath in the Great Flood, by Alien mining engineers, or by erosion, so it's a "three way argument". But the first two theories are not published in independent RS journals. Also, though many of these editors have PhDs, they are not generally for Shakespeare scholarship, or even English literature in several cases. Paul B (talk) 16:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

If a litmus test to decide whether a subject is "genuine" is the ability for researchers to "get their theories published within mainstream academic journals", then that threshold has been met. Not only have "The Review of English Studies"[[63]] and "Critical Survey" [[64]] both published articles by anti-Stratfordians, but the Shakespeare authorship studies is now being taught at at least one noted university [[65]]. Paul knows all this, so I wonder why he would post such erroneous information. Smatprt (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

out of "four" apparently. Where does that number come from? Top of your article, the one in question. "Supporters of any one of the four main theories are commonly called Oxfordians, Baconians, Marlovians or Derbyites respectively." Of course, my uncle Al claims to have written Hamlet after he's had a few pints, but as I keep telling him we can't find enough reliable sources to back him. --GRuban (talk) 17:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Well that would be five then, including the mainstream view. As for Smatprt's claim that the threshold has been met, your evidence is very weak. Two articles in journals which are not even devoted to Shakespeare or the English Renaissance is negligable. In any case, the first article is not about Oxfordianism. It's about a source for The Tempest. As for the "authorship issue" being taught, that is in the context of debate about the history and interpretation of Shakespeare. Creationmism is also "taught" in universities in that kind of context. As a matter of fact I used to teach the authorship issue myself when I ran a course called "Envisaging Shakespeare" some years ago. Paul B (talk) 17:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

So true. Corrected to five. --GRuban (talk) 18:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Please check your facts. The last time I checked "English Studies" includes Shakespeare! And... "Critical Survey addresses central issues of critical practice and literary theory in a language that is clear, concise, and accessible, with a primary focus on Renaissance and Modern writing and culture. The journal combines criticism with reviews and poetry, providing an essential resource for everyone involved in the field of literary studies. "…an essential journal for anyone interested in the critical debates of our time. Always up to the minute, yet free from jargon, it is also a great place for students to get a sense of what is going on in the subject." —Jonathan Bate, University of Liverpool" Smatprt (talk) 18:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You merely confirm exactly what I said. Neither periodical specialises in Shakespeare or the English Renaissance and the publications (at least the first one) are not even about the "authorship controversy". Paul B (talk) 18:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Paul, but you are just splitting hairs. "The Review of English Studies" and "Critical Survey" not to mention "Notes and Queries" and several others I havn't even mentioned are all peer reviewed academic journals with articles that are applicable to the subject at hand. Heck, "Critical Survey" even has Stanley Wells and Jonathan Bate on its editorial team.Smatprt (talk) 18:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

They may be "applicable", but that's not the issue. They are not about it. There are not articles in mainstream journals engaging in debate about whether Shakespeare or Oxford wrote Hamlet (or any other canonical play). The central point is that this is not a subject of mainstream debate about which there are a range of views. Isolated articles related to the topic are not evidence of mainstream debate about it.

Is there any reason why this debate can't stop while uninvolved editors look at the evidence and make a decision? If they need any further information they'll ask for it. Lobbying in the hope of affecting the outcome is not an honest use of the noticeboard. So please just STFU. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Tom, using internet slang for vulgar language really isn't helpful. Of course, if you meant "Southern Tenant Farmers Union", then please disregard! In any case, when two of your team make dishonest statements about by editing history in an attempt to sway uninvolved editors, it needs to be answered - especially when they refuse to retract them. Or when Paul makes a blanket (and incorrect) statement that authorship researchers can't get published in mainstream journals, and I can show otherwise, then it is incumbent upon me to do so.Smatprt (talk) 21:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I knew you couldn't do it. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

You misrepresent what I said. I didn't say "authorship researchers" could not publish in mainstream journals. any individual can publish if what they write is relevant and legitimate. I said that authorship debate is not part of normal academic discussion in mainstream journals. For comparison, there are articles in mainstream journals discussing whether or not Leonardo da Vinci painted the second version of the Virgin of the Rocks. There are not articles discussing whether or not it expresses secret anti-Catholic symbolism, as claimed by Dan Brown. Paul B (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller wrote above: "With all due respect, Schoenbaum, you seem to be a new WP:SPA with few edits, all but one to the talk page of the authorship article. I will recall a related discussion here [186] from last year." [Dougweller (talk) 10:31, 22 February 2010 (UTC)] Smatprt replied: "I do remember that discussion. At the time, this board looked at the credentials of the editorial team, asking relevant questions about their expertise. I would hope that a similar exercise is involved here." [Smatprt (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)] Paul B. responded: "Both Smatprt and Schoenbaum are SPA editors whose sole activity on Wikipedia is to promote Oxfordianism."

It's true that I'm new to Wikipedia. Everyone starts somewhere. I make no apology for it, and am willing to respond to questions from the board about my qualifications. Paul B's claim is false, not only as it relates to Smatprt, but also as it relates to me. None of my comments on the talk pages promotes the candidacy of the Earl of Oxford, and none will. That is not my purpose, and he has no basis for saying otherwise. He admitted above that he is biased against Oxfordians. The fact that I've had disagreements with him on the talk pages doesn't make me one. He's just stereotyping me. My comments have been anti-Stratfordian, not Oxfordian. 96.251.82.13 (talk) 00:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You are being transparently disingenuous. Only Oxfordians argue for evidence that "Shakespeare" was dead before 1604, as you have done. Paul B (talk) 21:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm previously uninvolved in this topic, and this thread is not making me eager to get involved.

Brief Chronicles does a pretty good job of looking like an academic journal, but it's clearly a publication founded to advance a specific agenda: giving a veneer of scholarly legitimacy to unorthdox views of Shakespearian authorship. I found this sentence from the editors' introduction to the first issue telling: "Four contributors to our first issue hold PhDs in literary studies; two are MDs with records of publication on literary and historical topics, and six are independent scholars." This is a red flag that the journal advances fringy claims. Certainly independent scholars make valuable contributions to many academic fields, but they also contribute loads of nonsense to poorly refereed venues. Also, the phrasing of the sentence suggests that some of the contributors who hold PhDs or MDs do not currently hold scholarly positions. So a substantial portion of the contributors in the very first issue do not currently hold teaching or research positions. Frankly, this looks like a fanzine dressed up as an academic journal. Still, it may be that this periodical can be cited in Wikipedia articles, but it should not be used to suggest that Oxfordianism or any other non-standard theory of Shakespearian authorship has academic legitimacy. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The editor who inserts most of the material referenced by it happens also to be the editor of the journal, and such use smacks of Wikipedia:COI to me. There also was a reference to the journal's establishment in the main text, as if it were some actual historical event that related to the topic, which I have deleted as unnecessary newsletter detail. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Another off-point accusation? And wasn't it you, Tom, that argued for the inclusion of the Kathman website of which YOU are a contributor? In spite of the apparent hypocrisy, this seems to be an attempt to sway uninvolved editors. Shame on you.Smatprt (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You know how dishonest we Stratfordians are, Smatprt. We just can't help it, since we've been doing it for four centuries to protect our cushy academic jobs.

The truth is I just now thought of that objection, and I think it's valid. There's nothing off-point about it, just as there's nothing off-topic about bringing up that you promote Oxfordism at the expense of Wikipedia's reputation at every opportunity, as anyone who bothers to check your posting and block history knows. And I've never referenced the one article on Dave's website that I wrote, in contrast to Stritmatter, who never loses an opportunity to insert a reference into any article that mentions Shakespeare. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input Akhilleus, and for stepping into this ugly fray. In response to your final sentence "Still, it may be that this periodical can be cited in Wikipedia articles, but it should not be used to suggest that Oxfordianism or any other non-standard theory of Shakespearian authorship has academic legitimacy", I think it should be noted that the issue here is whether the journal can be cited to explain Oxfordian views, which as Gruban noted above, should be allowed. As was noted "A source can be both reliable and biased. The article Shakespeare authorship question is specifically about the controversy, so it is a perfectly appropriate place where a journal published and reviewed by highly titled Oxfordians should be cited to explain Oxfordian views; it seems a perfectly reliable source for that branch of scholarship." Smatprt (talk) 21:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The issue here was Wikipedia:PARITY and both your and Schoenbaum's zany idea that Brief Chronciles fell under 'peer reviewed journals with high standards'. It is nothing of the sort. It is as if Butlerites or Robert Graves fans produced a fanzine-journal to push the view that a woman, or Homer's daughter 'wrote' the Odyssey, and, holding the Martin Wests, Geoffrey Kirks and Erbses' of this world in contempt, reviewed each others contributions and made out this was a 'peer review' as that word is understood in serious scholarship. Such stuff could be harvested to document their dotty views, certainly, but not as the results of 'peer-reviewed' quality scholarship. Oxfordian stuff has nothing to do with scholarship, since it's fundamental premise, that the Biographical fallacy is itself a fallacy (sheer blithering madness of method, in short), makes it wholly subjective and beyond the care and keep of anything by a subjective hermeneutics of suspicion that will always trump the known documentary record, and what can reasonable be inferred from it. Nishidani (talk) 12:07, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

No, the issue is quite simple. As stated at the top of this section "Is the Oxfordian journal Brief Chronicles considered to be a reliable source for the WikipediaShakespeare authorship question article?" That's the only question. "Academic Journal" or not, is actually off point due to the fact that, as Gruban notes above "A source can be both reliable and biased. The article Shakespeare authorship question is specifically about the controversy, so it is a perfectly appropriate place where a journal published and reviewed by highly titled Oxfordians should be cited to explain Oxfordian views; it seems a perfectly reliable source for that branch of scholarship." This, of course, is merely a paraphrase of the policy on Fringe articles where it notes that the theory itself can best be described by theory proponents and, the section on Parity that states: "Parity of sources may mean that certain fringe theories are only reliably and verifiably reported on, or criticized, in alternative venues from those that are typically considered reliable sources for scientific topics on Wikipedia. For example, the lack of peer-reviewed criticism of creation science should not be used as a justification for marginalizing or removing scientific criticism of creation science, since creation science itself is almost never published in peer-reviewed journals. Likewise, the views of adherents should not be excluded from an article on creation science because their works lack peer review." Smatprt (talk) 19:45, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I've looked at the journal. It is not a high quality scholarly journal, and it seems to be edited from a considerable degree of bias. But it does not seem altogether worthless either, it's somewhat more than a blog. The material is reviewed, and nothing in there seems to be the sort of total uncritical garbage that blogs on the subject are likely to contain. It can be used with caution. In fact, using anything requires caution. The world is not divided into RS and nonRS, and the Wikipedia practice of saying that it is has a considerable lack of reality. Basically, the nature of scholarship, especially in the humanities, is no trust nobody else's interpretation. I've seen peer-reviewed journals, that meet the technical definition of such, much worse than this. there is no bright line, so I cannot say of which side this one falls. It certainly can not be used to say that the Oxfordian hypothesis has academic respectability;but then, no indirect evidence would show it: the facts that the journal exists, that PMLA does list it, and that very few academic libraries list it in their catalog must be interpreted by the readers. What it is a RS for, like everything, is for the opinion of its authors. That its editors or authors are the most respectable people who believe in the hypothesis remains to be proven, and would need proving from their individual writing, not from being editors or published in the journal. If RSs are ranked from 5% to 95% reliable (I deny the possibility of 0% or 100%), and if the journals in PMLA fall in the scale between 70% and 95%, I'd guess that this is 70%. My personal opinion for why PMLA includes it is that scholars want the information on their opponents so they can refute them. DGG (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

FitzPatrick & Reynolds, False Profits

An editor is using the book False Profits as a source for several claims in the article on Multi-level marketing. The book appears to be a "vanity publishing" book, with the publisher, "Herald Press" [66] having the same address (1235-E East Blvd. #101, Charlotte NC 28203) as the authors "consumer advocate" organisation and website www.pyramidschemealert.org [67] No other books appear to have been published by this publisher and the authors have no other RS publications in the field, his website has been previously rejected as an RS for the article[68]. Comments appreciated. --Insider201283 (talk) 11:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you outline what is being asserted using this book as a source? Skeptics dictionary did a review BTW [69] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, Skeptic's Dictionary on this topic is another issue altogether. Carroll's articles on MLM and MLM companies like Amway are full of quite juvenile errors and misunderstandings of the industry (like claiming that generating wholesale sales through recruiting other distributors is dumb because it's "recruiting competitors" - yeah, so Coke should get rid of all those wholesale distribution channels and deal only with consumers!). Carroll refuses to even accept emails on the topics. Anyway, the claims the "False Profits" reference is to support (amongst other poorly supported POV claims, but one at a time) are that "Another criticism of MLMs are that MLMs ... are pyramid schemes ... and use..." the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain". These are clearly controversial POV opinions and from an otherwise unnotable and non RS source have no place in wikipedia. --Insider201283 (talk) 20:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

One could change this too "Carroll criticizes MLMs for being pyramid schemes that exploitation personal relationships for financial gain" Lots of people criticize MLMs and these criticisms are notable.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

My apologies I was a little unclear in my response. The claims were from the False Profit book, not Carroll. I've not looked into the use of Carroll as a source for the article yet (it's there) but I'm not sure if it's notable in this area, given it's clearly an opinion piece and to the best of my knowledge he has no expertise in the area of business. In any case, for now I'm just concerned with the False Profit's book. Carroll's book has at least been published by a reputable publishing company, though I'm not sure if the Amway/MLM articles are in the published version. --Insider201283 (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes I agree that the source is poor. However we have better sources that also say that MLM is a pyramid scheme and that it exploits relationships for financial gain such as [70]. Thus we have an easy solution. Replace this poor reference with a good reference. I have the complete copy to this article if needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:54, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Doc James, governments around the world all state that "pyramid schemes are illegal", yet they also state that multilevel marketing is legal. Any source that says MLMs are pyramid schemes are either (a) saying they are illegal, which is not true, or (b) saying pyramid schemes can be legal, which is also not true. Clearly any such source is, virtually by definition, not reliable. With regards the metapress.com link, it unfortunately doesn't work without the login. Which article are you referring to? There's two I found through a search for "multilevel marketing", one on "internal consumption" [71] and one on "socialization" [72]. I have both papers and neither of them support the claims, indeed both explicitly note that MLMs are NOT pyramid schemes. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

My apologies, I see now you mean the "internal consumption" paper as a source for the fact that some critics of MLM believe them to be pyramid schemes? It's certainly usable for that. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

CRITICISMS OF MULTILEVEL MARKETING MLM is without question controversial. Millions of people are positively disposed toward MLM as judged by the number of MLM distributors and MLM sales. Simultaneously, count- less individuals, through publications, blogs, and Web sites, vehemently criticize MLM. MLM practitioners in particular have been criticized for alleged unethical behavior that includes misrepresenting earning potentials, pressuring friendsand relatives to become distributors or purchase unneeded or unwanted products and services, and using deceptive recruit-ing tactics (e.g., Bloch 1996; Koehn 2001).

As will be discussed, the existence of internal consumption in the context of MLM is viewed by critics of MLM as primafacie evidence of an unethical and perhaps illegal pyramid scheme.

Title:On the Ethicality of Internal Consumption in Multilevel Marketing Source:The Journal of Personal Selling & Sales Management [0885-3134] Peterson yr:2007 vol:27 iss:4 pg:317

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:08, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

<-That's a pretty decent summary of the issues, shame we can't just cut and paste it :) It obviously needs rewording and additional sources. I think I have the two sources he cites, as well as many other academic articles, however I haven't read them all yet. At present I'm just trying to clear out the POV and poor sources currently being pushed. --Insider201283 (talk) 00:17, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

As long as we provide a reference and it seem to be a reasonable size quote way can't we directly quote it? I use Carl (2004)'s direct quote from the Western Journal of Communication complete with inline citation after all. Or is it because you have issues with Carter 1999 being part of the direct quote?--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:SPS specifically deals with material published by Vanity presses, which appears to be the case here. Is either author "an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."? Jayjg^(talk) 01:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent) Something similar to this was this was kicked around in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 1#When_does_an_person_become_enough_of_an_expert_that_we_can_used_his_self-published_material.3F. The list provided in that thread regarding Taylor and Fitzpatrick was as follows:

Carl, Walter J. (2002) "Organizational Legitimacy As Discursive Accomplishment in Multilevel Marketing Discourse" Organizational Communication Division of the National Communications Association conference Nov 21-24, 2002. (uses FitzPatrick's book False Profits as a reference)

Carl, Walter J. (2004) "The Interactional Business of Doing Business: Managing Legitimacy and Co-constructing Entrepreneurial Identities in E-Commerce Multilevel Marketing Discourse" Western Journal of Communication, Vol. 68.

Cruz, Joan Paola; Camilo Olaya (2008) "A System Dynamics Model for Studying the Structure of Network Marketing Organizations" Requirements of System Dynamics conference papers for the 2007 conference papers were as follows: "Papers may be submitted from January 2, 2007 to March 26, 2007 and must be in sufficient detail for the referees to judge their meaning and value. Submissions must be in English and should be 5 - 30 pages in length (there is also a maximum 2 MB electronic file size). Abstracts will not be accepted. Submission of models and other supporting materials to enable replication and aid the review process is encouraged in all cases (maximum file size 2 MB in addition to the paper). [...] All works submitted will be assigned for double blind peer review. The results, with the oversight of the program chairs, will determine whether a work will be accepted, and the presentation format for the work."

Higgs, Philip and Jane Smith (2007) Rethinking Our World Juta Academic uses MLM Watch website as well as Fitzpatrick as references. "Juta is respected as South Africa's pre-eminent academic and law publisher".

Koehn, Daryl (2001) "Ethical Issues Connected with Multi-Level Marketing Schemes" Journal of Business Ethics 29:153-160.

Pareja, Sergio, (2008) "Sales Gone Wild: Will the FTC's Business Opportunity Rule Put an End to Pyramid Marketing Schemes?" McGeorge Law Review, Vol. 39, No. 83. ("student-run, scholarly journal published on a quarterly basis" by University of the Pacific)

Terry Sandbek, Ph.D. Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology uses both Taylor and FitzPatrick

Woker, TA (2003) "If It Sounds Too Good to Be True It Probably Is: Pyramid Schemes and Other Related Frauds" South African Mercantile Law Journal 15: 237

Wong, Michelle. A. (2002) "China's Direct Marketing Ban: A Case Study of China's Response to Capital-Based Social Networks" Pacific Rim Law & Policy Journal

The issue of how much and often someone has to be sited in reliable sources to be considered an expert was never really addressed.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I should mention that the "MLM organizations have been described by some as cults (Butterfield, 1985), pyramid schemes (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997), or organizations rife with misleading, deceptive, and unethical behavior (Carter, 1999), such as the questionable use of evangelical discourse to promote the business (Hopfl & Maddrell, 1996), and the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997)." part is an exact quote of Carl's Western Journal of Communication article and is repeated verbatim (without the inline references) in Phillip G. Clampitt's Communicating for managerial effectiveness 3rd edition (2004) Sage Publications on pg 667. I used the Carl reference as it is clearly more informative--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:30, 27 February 2010 (UTC).

As an aside - pretty much all distribution is "multi-level" - the point at which "pyramid" becomes inportant is where a significant part of the total revenue is derived from recruiting more marketers. As long as the main interest is in selling a product, it is not a "pyramid scheme." In many fields, by the way, where there are several ;ocal competitors in an industry, one will buy the wholesale amounts to reach price break points, and re-wholesales lesser amounts to his own competitors. The result is that he makes a small profit on each resale (and saves on his own wholesale costs) while the others have a convenient local jobber who is as cheap or cheaper than if they made individual purchases. Collect (talk) 12:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The problem with this line of reasoning is it is like the one MLM pyramid schemes use ie we're not a pyramid because a corporation is a "pyramid". I would like to point out your counterargument has two major flaws-- 1) in standard businesses all the "local competitors in an industry" usually buy their goods from their own wholesalers and in some cases have an option to return any unsold goods (though in a limited time) and 2) there may be limits on reselling things ie you can't sale your left over Saturns to the competing non-GM dealerships.

Also if you really look, the very concept of MLM encourages you (if you actually want to make money) to recruit downline no matter where in the structure you are. But the longer the downline the more people between the wholesaler and the ultimate customer there are; so how does each and every person in that chain make a profit? Simple basic Business 101 logic would suggest that given the same level of profit the good would become more expensive the more levels it went through ie if you have Wholesaler to A to B to C to D to E to ultimate consumer then the good would be far more expensive for E than for A. Financial & Tax Fraud Associates in its Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) article points out that with the rise of the internet you have the ability to access to wholesalers directly so why would any one really want to mass with a downline?--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, it frankly astounds me that, given the apparent passion you have for editing articles related to this topic, that you apparently haven't bothered to do even a modicum of research into how MLM works. You give 2 points with regards "standard business" and both of those points apply to MLM as well. You purchase products from a wholesaler and have the option to return unsold goods. Indeed, the latter isn't "in some cases", it's virtually a golden rule of MLM! Secondly you have the shockingly misguided belief it's some kind of "endless chain". More than 30 years ago the FTC investigated that aspect and discovered (surprise, surprise) that's not how the business works at all. The number of "links" profiting in MLM is very similar, or less, to in traditional distribution. In traditional compensation plans like Amway, it's limited by volume, the same way it is in traditional distribution. In other MLM setups the maximum number of levels is explicitly limited. In either case "where you are in the structure" is not really a valid question as in a growing organisation that's in a constant state of flux. Read FTC vs Amway for more details. ::Now, you also point out that "with the rise of the internet you have the ability to access to wholesalers directly" and that is indeed a reality for all retailers, not just those using MLM. Yet you're ignoring the dual roles of MLM reps. Indeed, perhaps not even a dual role - you're missing the role entirely. In the past they were a combination of distributor and marketer. Today, with the internet and direct fulfillment, they rarely play the role of distributor - they pay the role of marketing. Even websites need a way to drive traffic to them. The idea "if you build it they will come" was dismissed pretty quickly in the dot com crash. These days MLMers are paid primarily for the role in marketing, not distribution. --Insider201283 (talk) 12:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

FTC vs Amway was decades ago and only delt with one company. Also I am pointing out basic Business 101 logic that anyone with good old fashion common sense should be able to see. The door to door salesman is a rare thing these days for a reason--brick and mortar business with mail order catalogs, later malls, and then superstores were more efficient in delivering goods to people. Another part of basic Business 101 is that any business that has a high turn over rate has a serious problem and MLM has one of the highest turn over rates known.

The FTC's plan to require MLMs to abide by the Franchise and Business Opportunities Rule was a good one and yet the DSA fought the idea with a near Viking like fierceness. But why shouldn't people know what their odds of actually making it are?

"Many pyramid schemes will claim that their product is selling like hot cakes. However, on closer examination, the sales occur only between people inside the pyramid structure or to new recruits joining the structure, not to consumers out in the general public." -- Debra A. Valentine, General Counsel for the U.S. Federal Trade Commission regarding pyramid schemes at the International Monetary Fund’s Seminar on Current Legal Issues Affecting Central Banks. And yet despite this the FTC still counts distributors as consumers. Does the left hand know what the right is even doing over at the FTC?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Also you say that MLM's limit the number of levels but how do they do that when in the other breath they talk about recruiting a downline making you more money? The basic logic presented doesn't wash and neither does the cop out that boils down to 'herding cats'. When the system itself encourages such behavior than the system itself is to blame.--BruceGrubb (talk) 03:04, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Quoting an RS source citing non-RS sources

An editor (User:BruceGrubb) on the Multi-level marketing article is trying something that to me seems a clear attempt at getting around the spirit of WP policy. A number of the sources he is wishing to use have been rejected as not RS, so he is quoting whole a sentence from an otherwise RS source in order to include criticism from the clearly non-RS sources. The paragraph in question is -

Another criticism of MLMs is that "MLM organizations have been described by some as cults (Butterfield, 1985), pyramid schemes (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997), or organizations rife with misleading, deceptive, and unethical behavior (Carter, 1999), such as the questionable use of evangelical discourse to promote the business (Hopfl & Maddrell, 1996), and the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain (Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997)."

Now note that the citations given are not actually listed as citations in the WP article, it's merely a whole quote from (Carl, Walter J. (2004) "The Interactional Business of Doing Business: Managing Legitimacy and Co-constructing Entrepreneurial Identities in E-Commerce Multilevel Marketing Discourse" Western Journal of Communication, Vol. 68 a minor but otherwise acceptable journal.[73] Fitzpatrick & Reynolds, 1997 is clearly referring to the book False Profits, a vanity press book which I listed on RS/N and was rejected as a reliable source[74]. I asked Bruce if the Carter reference was another vanity press book "Behind the Smoke & Mirrors" and his reply was that it didn't matter what the reference was because the quote was from a peer-reviewed journal.[75] He did not reply when I asked what the Hopfl & Maddrell reference was, and the Butterfield reference almost certainly references a 25yr old book about Amway [76] from a collective, non-profit press that actively admits to being committed to "the politics of radical social change" [77] - not exactly NPOV when discussing a multinational business! So, the quote cites 4 sources, two of which are clearly non-RS, one of which is dubious but perhaps allowable, and one of which is of unknown origin. Is this acceptable editing practice?--Insider201283 (talk) 13:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I'm inclined to say yes. If it is peer reviewed, then the sourcing was acceptable to the peer reviewers for that journal. They could have objected. They are in a much better position than us to evaluate the reliability of those sources. Keep in mind that authors of RS may use many sources we would not find acceptable for WP articles. However, their going through the processes of fact check and peer review clears them of any taint.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

However, a quote needs to say where the quote originated. It can certainly mention the RS, but then say something like "quoting such and such a source".--Wehwalt (talk) 13:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

On what basis do you say that journal editors or reviewers are better placed to evaluate reliability of a source? Editors do NOT check every source an author uses, particularly if they're used for a minor point unrelated to the main thrust of the article or the expertise of the journal (in this case it's a discourse analysis). The logical conclusion of this train of thought is that the opinions (or lack of) of any journal editor or reviewer anywhere trumps Wikipedia policy. That opens a whole new can of worms. --Insider201283 (talk) 13:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Just to add, what you're saying is that if a source, any source, is cited in a peer-reviewed article, then that automatically makes the source RS, which means it should be usable directly. I think that line of thought has been rejected here many times. --Insider201283 (talk) 13:47, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I did not say that. You can use the RS. We would disqualify RS because they use sources we would not find acceptable for a Wikipedia article? Now that would be a Procrustean bed for scholarship!--Wehwalt (talk) 13:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

If you could follow the chain of sources long enough, almost every information would become non-reliable. After all, we clearly can't cite "I spoke to these otherwise non-notable people who claim they were watching it happen, and he said..."; but a New York Times article based on reports of eyewitnesses is often fine, and a peer reviewed scholarly paper collating and analyzing multiple eyewitness reports is the best we could hope for, though in the end, they would be just the same non-notable people who claim to have been watching something happen. The difference is that each step is a filter which, hopefully, would filter out the less reliable information. (Doesn't always work, of course, but it's the best we can do.) --GRuban (talk) 19:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure I agree there. In one case while researching Omega-3 I came across a claim in a newspaper that seemed odd to me. They quoted a journal article, so I got a hold of the article. The journal article did in fact say what the newspaper said, but they were merely citing another article - it wasn't part of their actual study, just part of the introductory discussion. I then sourced the original article and found it didn't make this claim at all - in fact it said the complete opposite. What the newspaper said, and the journal it cited said, was outright false. Should that be ignored when deciding what to put in to Wikipedia? Remember the core criteria is Verifiability. We should be able to look at an articles sources to make a judgement about what an article says - and if the articles sources a verifiably poor, then by definition the article is not a reliable source. This isn't rocket science. Find some crackpot with a bizarre theory about climate change who manages to get quoted in the newspaper? Voila, his theory should now be in wikipedia! You're basically saying that information from known unreliable sources is fine to put in Wikipedia as long as it's been quoted by an ostensibly reliable source. I think that's a very, very dangerous path. --Insider201283 (talk) 22:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

First sentence of Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—what counts is whether readers can verify that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." And, yes, that absolutely does mean we have plenty of "crackpots[people] with bizarre theories who manage to get quoted in the media" who have articles in the Wikipedia. I can list as many as you want without breaking a sweat: from Time Cube, to Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, to Category:Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations to David Icke to ... We do our best to document what the world thinks. What the world thinks is sometimes quite bizarre, and sometimes outright false, yes. We also write about outright falsehoods: Piltdown man, Gleiwitz incident ... --GRuban (talk) 23:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh I understand that, but that's also an issue of Wikipedia:WEIGHT where some idea has received widespread coverage. Here we're basically saying any idea is acceptable if any RS has published it - though I suppose that's what Wikipedia:UNDUE is supposed to address. Still, the idea that a concept from a verifiably non-RS source effectively becomes RS because it's repeated somewhere RS and verifiable does not rest well with me.--Insider201283 (talk) 00:57, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of your feelings on this matter in this case you have clearly lost the argument as Wikipedia:SOURCES is pretty clear on this. Carl is a reliable source and User:Wehwalt is echoing what User:Arthur Rubin and user:TheEditor22 have said regarding referenced material used peer reviewed source gives the cited work more reliability. As for Wikipedia:UNDUE if you look at the majority of what is out there that is not trying to sale the whole MLM idea is already negative. Look at What to sell on eBay and where to get it from 2006 by Chris Malta, Lisa Suttora through McGraw-Hill pg 194-197 for an example; hardly a positive view of MLMs in general. Heck, Tina Grant back in a 1997 book called International directory of company histories, Volume 41 by St. James Press said "Nevertheless, Herbalife's distribution network closely resembles the typical multi-level marketing approach — sometimes referred to as a pyramid scheme..." on page 203.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:35, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, the vast majority of info does NOT refer to MLM as "already negative". You cherry pick your sources to make this claim, or take a source like the Walter one here, which is not negative about MLM, but merely refers to the fact some people (citing non-RS sources) make this claim, and then claim it supports you! It's like taking a geology book that says "some people believe the world is flat" and claiming the book supports your idea the world is flat! You're other technique, alas an all too common one in this field, is to immediately dismiss any pro-MLM books or articles based on the fact that they are, well, pro-MLM - so therefore they can't be trusted! Books not about ebay, but about MLM by recognized publishers by professors of marketing at top universities? Unacceptable - the publisher publishes stuff on homeopath too. Though of course, a book on another topic altogether, from the same publisher, that mentions, briefly, something negative about MLM, well that's acceptable! Books by well known recognized professional journalists - actually on MLM not something barely related - nope, not acceptable! He's just trying to sell a book! (well duh!). I could go on and on, but the situation is clear. A sentence or paragraph mention in an otherwise unrelated article does not have as much weight as a whole book or article focused on the topic. A self-published book published by a non-expert does not have as much weight as a third party published book on the topic by an academic. You took unreliable and minor sources, by people with entirely unrelated expertise, and used it to create a whole section on "criticism" that made up something like half the article. And you put it at the top of the article before even describing what MLM (the topic of the article) is! That is not WP:BALANCE nor WP:NPOV. The article needs a section on controversy of this topic. And yes, the confusion in terminology needs mentioning, but your obsession with getting the clearly incorrect (as evidenced by multiple unimpeachable sources on the topic) claim that MLM=pyramid scheme into every article you can is more than tiresome.--Insider201283 (talk) 12:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent)Come on Insider201283, even a good hunk of the supposedly neutral and pro-MLM stuff call its a "scheme" rather than a "method", "methodology", or even "system" and as I pointed out in the article's talk page "scheme" carries with it some very negative baggage (such as "dodge: a statement that evades the question by cleverness or trickery" or "form intrigues (for) in an underhand manner"). As for multiple unimpeachable sources in the article's talk page you have claimed self-published works weren't (The Business School for People Who Like Helping People by Robert Kiyosaki through Cashflow Technologies which he owns and is president of) and claimed peer-reviewed papers weren't (Cruz) and have been called on the carpet several time for overly pro-MLM editing and even admitting "I have no problems being accused of violating WP:COI - I am." with regards to Alticor/Amway/Quixtar editing on your own talk page and this nonsense seems to be just a continuation of that. You have even challenged The Times by claiming the totally insane statement ""court testimony" is not only a primary source, it's inherently unreliable and extremely POV." despite this was presented by The Times. You are even challenging a direct quote from a peer reviewed paper because you don't like one of the reference they used.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, (1) no it doesn't. You clearly haven't read much of the literature (2) I've said MANY times I don't think the Kiyosaki book is a particularly good source, so why your obsessing about it I don't know. You are also WRONG about it, as you well know, since it's been (a) republished by another company and (b) Cashflow Tech is not considered SPS. (3) Your further obsession with unfounded attacks on me, based on out of context info is quite bizarre. The problem with the Times article was it cited a court case, but the court documents themselves, publicly available, said something different! Are you *really* admitting you want something put in an article that is verifiably wrong? Is that your general approach to editing WP?--Insider201283 (talk) 14:21, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Insider201283, but you clearly stated "The books I've listed are only from recognized publishing companies and not self-published. As such they are considered good sources under Wikipedia guidelines WP:RS and WP:V." in the Talk:Multi-level marketing/Archive 2#Sources_for_the_article and followed that up with a list of books by such people as Mark Yarnell (who is now selling IE crystals which Dave Touretzky showed have some serious scientific issues) and Kiyosaki (who admits to claiming that his cat is his business partner to get out of contracts). As the old adage goes with friends like those you don't need any enemies.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:52, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, Media Research Center, Media Matters for America, Newsbusters

See also discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#John_Gibson_.28political_commentator.29. THF (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

RFC on Media watchdog groups

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I believe there needs to be a consistent Wikipedia decision on the use of partisan media-watchdog organizations. Newsbusters, a project of the Media Research Center, which is run by L. Brent Bozell III, is consistently deleted from articles on the fictional grounds that it is an "extremist" or "Far right" organization (in fact, it, like Bozell, is mainstream conservative); it remains in only a handful of articles. However, the same editors that would delete newsbusters.org have little qualms about inserting fair.org into articles, though Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting is on the Naderist left. Media Matters for America, which is mainstream liberal, is frequently cited, as well. I can see rejecting all three as sources; I can see accepting MMA and Newsbusters as opinion sources and rejecting FAIR as UNDUE except when it is cited by tertiary sources; what I can't see is the current Wikipedia quasi-consensus of deleting Newsbusters and regularly citing to MMA and FAIR. The effect of the double-standard by the same editors, intentional or unintentional, is POV-pushing throughout the encyclopedia: Newsbusters' POV is considerably closer to the median American voter than MMA or FAIR is. (Disclosure: In reading these articles, I learned that a MRC affiliate asked me to write two op-eds for them a few years back. I didn't realize at the time that it was associated with MRC. Go know.) THF (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

NB there are two questions here; many comments answer one question but seem unaware of the other:

1. Should Wikipedia treat MRC/Newsbusters sourcing consistently with Media Matters for America sourcing?
2. Is it permissible to include links to partisan media watchdog groups in BLPs?

THF (talk) 03:52, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Consistency

RFC: Should Wikipedia treat MRC/Newsbusters sourcing consistently with Media Matters for America sourcing?

• Support consistency. The Media Research Center is the leading conservative media criticism organization. It's not a neutral source to be sure, but there is no difference between it and Media Matters for America: they both provide partisan takes on their perception of media bias. They have a notable point of view, and Wikipedia:NPOV explicitly states that notable points of view should be included in articles. I'd like to get consensus on treating the two identically, or a sound reason why it continues to be acceptable to include criticism from the MMA blog in articles, but MRC/Bozell/Newsbusters criticism gets scrubbed as a violation of one policy or another. COI disclosure: I'm going to pitch friends at MRC an article about bias in Wikipedia, so I'd make more money if Wikipedia continues to have a double-standard. THF (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency. MMA and FAIR are routinely cited, often as providing criticism of conservatives. This is a problem, to me, when both identify themselves as "progressive" and MMA even goes so far as to claim that they "monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media" (by substituting their own. If you allow them, you have to allow Newsbusters. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. A classic example of false equivalence. Not all media criticism organizations are alike, just like all newspapers, journals, and books are all alike. Gamaliel (talk) 05:35, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• MMA doesn't even pretend to be impartial. That they term things that they disagree with as "misinformation", demonstrates their bias. At the same time, they'll ignore similar items if they are complimentary to liberals. They are no more neutral than Newsbusters. Niteshift36 (talk) 05:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying one is impartial and one isn't. Lots of sources are not impartial, lots of sources are biased. Not all non-impartial things are alike. Gamaliel (talk) 05:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Then on what basis should Newsbusters be rejected as a reliable source? Niteshift36 (talk) 05:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• For space considerations, I've answered your question at length in the section below. Gamaliel (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• I've responded to the answer. Nothing in Gamaliel's argument justifies treating MMFA better than MRC. They're both partisan watchdog organizations. THF (talk) 00:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• And the New York Times and the Springfield Shopper are both newspapers. Repeating an assertion of equivalence does not make your case. Gamaliel (talk) 02:32, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Note - Gamaliel has canvassed the RFC. I didn't think it was appropriate to notified those which are sympathetic to your cause. Arzel (talk) 03:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• An RFC is designed to elicit opinions. I asked for opinions from three users whose opinions I respect. They are free to agree or disagree. You are likewise welcome to ask from opinions of whomever you choose. Gamaliel (talk) 04:09, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Then you should read Wikipedia:CANVASS for future reference. Your scale was limited, your message was neutral, your approach was transparent. However, your audiance was partisan, and by definition is called votestacking. Arzel (talk) 11:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• One person's respected opinions are another person's partisan ideological ammo. I asked for opinions from users I respected. I'm not much for networking, so if I knew more users, I would have contacted more. I'm sure were the situation reversed you would have asked the same usual suspects. We can argue about ill intent or you can AGF, your choice. Gamaliel (talk) 14:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Support They are clearly ideological mirror images of each other. Arzel (talk) 05:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support Parallels are sufficiently evident than using only one would violate one of the basic principles of WP - that of being able to balance positions. Were we to abrogate that principle, we would disserve the project. Collect (talk) 12:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support per all the above, provided there's consensus that they are indeed the leading examples of their kind on either side of the debate, accurately reflecting the views of many. Barnabypage (talk) 13:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency in application - else this boat will lean too far one way and lose credibility. I prefer it when everybody hates us. Rklawton (talk) 14:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support. I would prefer to see all three disallowed as sources, because they all cherry-pick and omit facts which are pertinent but do not support their narrative. And it is not a false equivalence (as asserted by Gamaliel) because there is no difference between MMFA's flacking for the Democrats and MRC's POV-pushing from the right. Horologium (talk) 15:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support although I agree with Horologium above that none are demonstrated to be relable sources. Auntie E. (talk) 17:48, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support, with due consideration to Wikipedia:UNDUE and Wikipedia:NPOV MutantPlatypus (talk) 18:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose since this needs to handled on a case-by-case basis. As Gamaliel notes, this is a false equivalence. This seems similar to saying that Fox News and CNN are the same when in fact Fox News is much more politically biased. I do think it is important to note both sides, but sometimes a side skews the facts too much for them to be used without introducing "original research" correcting the errors. For example, it is not appropriate to say that both the right-wing view that global warming is not happening should be given the same weight as the "left-wing" view that global warming is happening. Similar statements go for "Intelligent design". These are obvious, but more subtle disregard of science are also present in debates on financial regulation and healthcare as well. II | (t - c) 23:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Or CNN is more biased. Certainly more Americans trust Fox News than CNN. Given that this New York Times story explains why CNN so frequently cites to MMFA, I fail to see why we should bootstrap a partisan's use of a partisan organization into a double-standard on Wikipedia. THF (talk) 00:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - this is clearly a False dichotomy; to quote myself from another discussion: there are always going to be issues and facts that are more relevant to some articles than to others, and it's disingenuous to try and shoehorn material into or out of one article because it doesn't fit a predetermined mold. Wikipedia is not a battleground, and we should do everything we can to discourage the dogmatic impulses of some to falsely equivocate very distinct articles. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose push-polls couched in the form of Requests For Comment. It's moot, anyway. The noticeboard doesn't make pronouncements, neither are the perceived consensus of particular RfCs useful as editing dictates. Questions of weight must be resolved on a case by case basis. Any of these organizations would in particular instances qualify as reliable sources and could be used with attribution. Dlabtot (talk) 02:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency. We should support source consistently within reason. While a human interest or opinion piece should not have the same level of importance as a formal news piece unless it is clearly labeled as such we should not be able to exclude it. Conversely just because a reference come from a major publisher like Random House, Wiley or even the University of Chicago a source should not get a free ride. For example, The Gold Leaf Lady and Other Parapsychological Investigations may be by University of Chicago press but that alone should not make it reliable. Similarly Wiley has a Lifestyles division that includes ...For dummies, Betty Crocker, Weight Watchers, Howell Book House, and Pillsbury so saying that is up to the same standards as the more academic Wiley InterScience, Wiley Plus, Wiley-Blackwell, or Wiley higher education brands is total insanity.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency. Both organizations are populated with ideological activists, regardless of their prior journalistic experience or degrees.--Drrll (talk) 07:48, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I support the idea about consistency, but would prefer that no partisan(left or right) opinion/media watch groups or whatever the heck they are called are used as sources and definately not used in the external links section. Using them gives them our "endoresment" as it were. We could find 100's or links to use, how do we decide which ones go in? Anyways, --Tom (talk) 15:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I think the existing rules are sufficient to deal with various kind of sources, and in particular I don't feel it would be useful to create a new category of "leaning sources" which would be used to exclude sources. WP:RS says that questionable sources "expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature" are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties. Creating a "leaning sources" category could end up undermining Amnesty International in order to exclude CAMERA. --Dailycare (talk) 20:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency. Looking at Media Matters' "About Us" page, I see that it says they are "dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media. ... Media Matters for America put in place ... the means to systematically monitor a cross section of print, broadcast, cable, radio, and Internet media outlets for conservative misinformation — news or commentary that is not accurate, reliable, or credible and that forwards the conservative agenda .... Media Matters posts rapid-response items as well as longer research and analytic reports documenting conservative misinformation throughout the media." In other words, their purpose is focused only on noting what they describe as conservative misinformation. When they criticize mainstream media, they normally do so on the basis that the subject presented the conservative point of view too positively or the liberal point of view too negatively. This is just the opposite side of the coin from Media Research Center's goal of documenting "liberal bias in the media". Wikipedia needs to treat sources such as Media Matters and MRC consistently with each other. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency. There are many sources on opposite sides of the left/right ideological divide such as these that, even if not point-for-point identical, are fairly equivalent. Wikipedia should treat them consistently. Jayjg^(talk) 03:08, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support consistency. Both sources are equally biased in that they control the subjects they choose to cover. Sometimes an issue is only covered by one or the other. In cases where they both cover the same subject, the editors can duke it out as usual. --Jarhed (talk) 08:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. We should treat them consistently to the extent they behave the same as each other. We should simply accept a declaration that two sources are "just as bad" (or just as good) and declare that both are totally banned or totally acceptable. The supposed consistency approach can actually damage article content if one declares a solid source on one side of an ideological divide the equivalent of an unreliable source on the other side. It's like a basketball coach sending the last guy off the bench to commit dirty fouls on the best player of the other team. If both players get thrown out of the game on technical fouls, then the decision has strongly benefitted the team that only lost a benchwarmer. I have a big problem with a blanket declaration that Media Matters is unreliable. MMA's modus operandi is generally to mention a person's remarks along with a video clip (for TV programs) or audio clip (for radio programs) of the remarks along with a long section of transcript. And rather than taking remarks out of context, MMA places the pertinent remarks in a large amount of context. In fact, it oftens seems that MMA bends over backward to show the context of a remark. They often excerpt such a large portion of video and written transcript that it gets tedious. As far as I know, MMA hasn't been reliably shown (or even merely accused) of doctoring its video/audio clips or transcript excerpts, so it seems frequently to be a good source for the fact of what was said. In contrast, the second most recent article currently at Newsbusters (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/03/06/bill-oreilly-rips-tom-hanks-mocking-fox-news) ends with the Newsbusters writer declaring, "Yeah, Tom - don't be a pinhead!" I don't think we should make blanket declarations of equivalency. There should be a case by case assessments (unless a source has been shown to have a track record for factual inaccuracy). If a source provides a video or audio clip to verify a quote, they provide a sufficient portion of the text so that the remark isn't being taken out of context, and the source doesn't have a track record of fabricating clips, then I think it's permissible to cite to a group even though it has an ideological bent. On the other hand, we should be much less willing to use a synthesis or commentary from such sources. Those could be used to illustrate criticisms from a given political faction when clearly portrayed as such and to the extent consistent with policies on NPOV, undue weight, etc. For example, in this column (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-bozell/2010/03/06/bozell-column-year-anti-religious-bigotry), Bozell of Newsbusters attacks "Hollywood and New York" for "clearly anti-Islamic religious bigotry." Bozell's examples include an episode of 30 Rock in which Alec Baldwin's character feign's interest in a girlfriend's Islamic faith. Bozell alleges that the point of the episode is to ridicule Islam. I haven't seen the episode, but given what I've seen of 30 Rock, Bozell's accusation seems off-base. Baldwin's character is supposed to a selfish, arrogant buffoon. It seems much more likely that the episode was intended to satirize Baldwin's character. So we should judge on a case-by-case basis. If a source includes a clip and sufficient context, those would be factor's in favor of the reliability of quotes it presents. We should have greater skepticism towards including synthesis from such websites, except in the proper context as one POV. And request for comments should definitely not be couched in push-poll terms (i.e. it is "consistent" to view Media Matters and Newbusters as equal, which presumes a right answer). --JamesAM (talk) 18:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
• Support...and it's high time this 800# gorilla in the middle of the Wikipedia room was quietly euthanized. Judging by the response thus far, perhaps there's some hope for this medium after all. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 06:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Rebuttal

This seemingly simple RFC isn’t so simple when you really look at what’s being asked here. We’re being asked to make a declaration that two items in a category are equivalent. Is there really any precedent here under WP practice for this sort of declaration? Do we usually do this? Should we declare Science and The Lancet equivalent in the journal category? Le Monde and the Washington Times? Fox and Al Jazeera? What is the point and usefulness of such a declaration? It should be incumbent upon those who support this atypical declaration to prove both how they are equivalent, beyond merely asserting it, and why there is any point to this. It has been asserted by many that these two organizations are equivalent, but these assertions are not backed up by facts and are based on assumptions. In reality MRC is more akin to FAIR, and this comparison was often made in the years before MMFA existed. MMFA slipped easily into a preexisting analogy, but the facts do not bear this comparison out. This is just a preliminary look, I’m going to post this now before my entire day gets consumed .

• Composition: MMFA staffers include a number of professional authors and journalists such as Eric Alterman, Eric Boehlert, and Will Bunch, all of whose professional work has no doubt been cited in many WP articles. Their numbers also include a PhD in economics and a doctorate in communications and numerous members with long years of political experience. MRC staffers seem to have little in the way of experience outside the realm of professional conservative activism. Tim Graham was White House Correspondent for a Christian publication for a year, but I could find no others with professional journalism experience. The bio of founder, Brent Bozell, indicates no professional journalism or academic background. He is a syndicated columnist, but I wouldn’t make too much of that, since the same syndicate brings you Al Capp.
• Media citations: A sample of the citations of both organizations by the media, taken from Lexis/Nexis searches for (“Media Matters for America”) and (“Media Research Center” OR “Newsbusters”)

MRC: The Washington Times (169) The New York Times (14) The Washington Post (14) St. Petersburg Times (13) The Sydney Morning Herald (Australia) (13) USA Today (11)

Fox News Network (112) CNN Transcripts (36) Global Broadcast Database - English (Full Text) (30) Federal News Service (16) CNBC News (14) National Public Radio (NPR) (10) MSNBC (9) CQ Congressional Testimony (4)

MMFA: The New York Times (27) The Washington Times (27) The Washington Post (24) USA Today (11) The Hollywood Reporter (8) The Philadelphia Inquirer (7) The Toronto Star (5)

CNN Transcripts (33) Global Broadcast Database - English (Full Text) (27) MSNBC (20) CNBC News (11) Fox News Network (5) National Public Radio (NPR) (3) NBC News (3)

When you look at these numbers, remember that MRC has been around 22 years while MMFA has been around for only five. That makes the disparity all the noticeable. MRC leads only in citations by ideological fellow travelers Fox News and Washington Times, and the numbers for the latter are skewed by the fact that the WT runs Bozell’s column, which ends with the words “L. Brent Bozell III is the president of the Media Research Center”.

• Reception and perception: Columbia Journalism Review, the most prominent and respected publication about the news media, has little respect for the MRC. A sample: CJR denounces them as “Propaganda Clothed as Critique”, while citing Media Matters as “a consistently useful resource”.

More to come, probably, but I think this more than makes my point. Gamaliel (talk) 23:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

That probably speaks more to the bias of CJR than anything. I am not sure how anyone can claim that either has a moral highground over the other. Arzel (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The moral highground isn't a policy matter, unfortunately. Gamaliel (talk) 23:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Then the view of CJR really adds nothing to the discussion. Arzel (talk) 23:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, it illustrates that the the most prominent and respected publication about the news media treats these organizations differently, so we should follow their lead as we follow the lead of secondary sources generally. Gamaliel (talk) 23:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Liberal leaning outlets quote liberal leaning sources more often. Who is surprised by that? Not me. 98.208.212.240 (talk) 02:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

An opinion piece by Brian Montori who praises NPR for being fair while noting that it's audience is almost exclusively liberal, rails on MRC for being funded by the right, and ignores that MMFA is funded by the left? Yeah, sounds like a pretty balanced piece ;) Arzel (talk) 02:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Anyone seriously doubt that The New York Times, The Washington Post, NBC News, and MSNBC are not "ideological fellow travelers" with MMfA?--Drrll (talk) 08:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone. No observer of the media or media professional would take that notion seriously. Gamaliel (talk) 14:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Then I'd submit to you that you haven't looked at the issue enough. One very good example would be Bernard Goldberg. With 28 years as a CBS reporter and anchor, 38 years total in the media and numerous awards (at least 10 emmys), I'd say he qualifies as a "media professional". His book NYT best-seller Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News details (with names and incidents, not anonymous sources and vague references) the bias he saw exhibited at CBS. It's worth noting that Goldberg was a life-long liberal that had never voted for a Republican in his life. So you can't call him a partisan hack. We won't even go into his follow up book "Arrogance".Niteshift36 (talk) 16:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'm not sure how this is on topic at all. The issue is whether or not MRC and MMFA are mirror opposites. MRC and Fox regularly give each other mutual tongue baths, while MMFA regularly criticisms the mainstream media as well as the conservative media. So I'm sure they'd agree with Goldberg about bias, but they would differ in their examples. That hardly makes them fellow travelers and is another example of many of why we shouldn't treat these apples and oranges the same. Gamaliel (talk) 16:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• I hope you didn't hurt yourself when you just ducked that point and did your bob and weave. Drrll asked if anyone doubted that some of these outlets were ideologic fellow travelers. You made the statement "No observer of the media or media professional would take that notion seriously." Then I showed you that statement is false by showing you an award winning career journalist from a major network that says there IS media bias. MM doesn't "regularly" criticize the MSM. The MSM parrots their left leaning POV's. So if my remark is "off-topic", it's no moreso than yours was. Glass house anyone? Niteshift36 (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• If Goldberg has demonstrated that MMFA and those news outlets Drrll specified are skipping merrily hand in hand when the former constantly criticizes the latter, then I'm sure you'll be ready to provide a page number from one of his books. Or perhaps instead you'll resort to sarcasm and incivility again. Gamaliel (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• So now a little humor about bobbing and weaving is incivility? You know you weren't referring solely to a partnership between the two and, if you actually were, you did a poor job of defining your incredibly narrow statement. I think it's more a case of you not planning to have someone so specifically demonstrate that true media professionals have identified and exposed bias in the media. But you can spin it however you want, just like MM does routinely. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'm glad you've treated us to some more of that humor of yours. Gamaliel (talk) 05:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Rebuttal to the Rebuttal

• First, your study is flawed. MMFA's citation count is artificially inflated because it was founded recently, and there was a rash of news stories about its creation by Soros, and then about its head, David Brock, who released a biography. That MMFA was in the news does not mean that its reporting, as opposed to its existence, has made news.
• Second, Columbia Journalism Review is happily and proudly biased left of center, going so far as to say that conservatives make bad journalists. It's hardly surprising that they like their ideologically sympathetic watchdog group and dislike the conservative media watchdog group that has criticized CJR for its bias.
• Third, you've cherry-picked quotes. The New York Times calls Media Matters for America "a highly partisan organization". That same story explains why they are cited so frequently on CNN: "James Carville, the Democratic strategist and CNN commentator, has read from its items on the air, not least, he says, because they just irritate the right to no end."

Your information provides no reason to treat MMFA differently than MRC. THF (talk) 00:20, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Lexis/Nexis came up with hits dating back to the years of MRC's founding as well. Should there not also be a rash of similar stores about MRC's founding? And whatever rash of stories there were, if MRC was truly viewed as important and significant, 22 years of reports and citations would far a one year statistical blip.
• Yes, I have, because I went to the top and picked the most significant source of media commentary. A case of Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT doesn't eliminate CJR's respect and prominence. You've just cherry picked yourself. I could cherry pick through years of the NYT or Washington Post or CNN or The Atlantic or whatever and find many more unflattering things to say about the MRC. Gamaliel (talk) 02:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• There's plenty of reason here to dispute the false equivalence postulated here. It should be incumbent upon you to back up your assertion if you want it to become WP policy. Gamaliel (talk) 02:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• NOTE: the user Gamaliel is canvassing.[78][79][80] 172.129.113.34 (talk) 07:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• That's already been discussed above. Need we bring up this in every section? Gamaliel (talk) 14:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• The consensus was clearly against your personal view Gamaliel, so you then informed three users that you know would take your side. That is trying to influence the outcome of the discussion. 199.8.158.103 (talk) 16:22, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• RFCs are open to everyone, just as editing on Wikipedia is open to everyone. Gamaliel (talk) 16:51, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Consistently include or consistently exclude?

RFC: Is it permissible to include links to partisan media watchdog groups in BLPs?

• Include. Wikipedia:NPOV requires the inclusion of notable points of view about a subject. So long as these opinion pieces are recognized as opinion pieces, it is appropriate to have a sentence that links to notable criticism by these notable media watchdog groups, even though they are partisan. (It would be inappropriate to have an entire article taken up with such criticism, however, per WEIGHT. See, e.g., John Stossel.) Wikipedia:BLP is meant to exclude the bogus "Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster" conspiracy theorists, and to ensure adherence to NPOV, not to whitewash articles of reputable mainstream partisan criticism. Perceived media bias is a real issue, and excluding the only sources that specialize in commenting upon it would give readers the false impression that media bias is not an issue. THF (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Mixed include We have "conspiracy theorist" supporters in some articles (including BLP and BDPs) who say the allegation of a conspiracy or criminal act, no matter how far-fetched, must be presented at all times, even where the source is a clearly partisan source. I would therefore draw the line at such material implying a specific criminal act where no subsequent acts of any kind ensued and no prosecutions ensued of any kind. Collect (talk) 12:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Media bias real or perceived is certainly an issue which can't be ignored in BLPs. But if a partisan watchdog (anywhere on the political spectrum) is frequently putting forward fringe theories, doesn't that tend to imply that it is itself a fringe source, and not a good reflection of mainstream media criticism? Barnabypage (talk) 13:09, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Include - but limited to political views. It's useful to know how the left/right views a matter. However, I do not extend this "include" to fringe science theories or conspiracy theories. I have no use for wackos - except in articles about the wackos themselves. Rklawton (talk) 14:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Exclude It is easier to enforce a blanket policy of excluding opinion from media-watchdog sites than it is to deal with tendentious wiki-lawyers who will push the limits on what is and is not allowable criticism. If something is notable enough to garner mention in the article, it will be covered somewhere other than these sources, which exist solely to create spin for opposing ideologies. Horologium (talk) 16:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Include - but pay attention to the cautions and restrictions laid out at WP:NPOV (especially WP:UNDUE). Blueboar (talk) 16:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Exclude: These sources are involved in whatever controversy they are supporting or refuting, therefore they are wikipedia:PRIMARY primary sources. They should only be included in content about the controversies, not content about the facts. MutantPlatypus (talk) 18:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• I don't understand the Wikipedia:PRIMARY argument. If Source X writes an analysis Y of Jane Doe, that's surely a secondary source, right? Yes, it should be phrased in the text as "Media Matters said Y about Jane Doe" rather than stated as a plain fact, since Media Matters is not neutral, but that doesn't transform it into a primary source. I don't think anyone is proposing to use these sources as neutral arbiters of the facts, merely as exemplars of notable points of view about particular subjects. THF (talk) 19:34, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Exclude, or include with balance. I've seen articles where people try to insert faux "awards" that MM makes up to promote their own POV (like "misinformer of the year"). There really isn't much balance to that. It's a made up award that is the opinion of some writer. If it is a legitimate criticism on an issue, that is a different matter. But both sides spin things their way. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Neither. Issues should be decided on a case by case basis. Citations of fact? Probably not. Citations of opinion? Maybe, depending on if this opinion is an outlier or representative. Gamaliel (talk) 23:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

  Presentation of a POV in favor of one under some situation is a main reason this is being discussed. It is far better to have a policy that is clear rather than some arbitary measure which only results in edit wars. Arzel (talk) 23:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

  A broad policy is what would be arbitrary. We handle things like I described all the time, no reason it can't be done for these sources. Gamaliel (talk) 23:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Exclude. Let the tabloids deal with the mud. Arzel (talk) 23:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
• Include where appropriate. Lumping together all citations to Media Matters is as bad as insinuating that Media Matters and Newsbusters are identical. There are two major contexts in which quotations from such sources actually appear.

• (1) Expression of notable opinions. Per Wikipedia:NPOV, we report facts, including facts about opinions -- but we can't include every opinion on every subject. This is inevitably a judgment call. In general, however, as Gamaliel's work illustrates, I think that Media Matters and FAIR will generally be more notable than Newsbusters. I think I'm among those who've removed at least one Newsbusters reference but I don't think I've ever removed an opinion, properly attributed and cited, from more significant right-wing sources like National Review Online or The Wall Street Journal. You can say something like "Conservatives, however, criticized Obama's proposal, arguing that it would cost too much," and cite to NRO or whatever. Contrary to Arzel's view, this isn't "mud" -- a fair summary of the major differing opinions can help the reader understand a subject.
• (2) Statements of fact, especially about media. This aspect was discussed at length in several threads on Talk:Chris Wallace (journalist), especially this one. Media Matters had reviewed several dozen publicly available transcripts of a particular Fox News show and made a factual assertion about what was (and, more importantly, what was not) in the transcripts. It was open to anyone to oppose use of the Media Matters report by finding an error. No one did that, however (not surprising, because, as usual, Media Matters was completely accurate). Instead we had paragraph upon paragraph of attacks on Media Matters. In the case of a factual report of that sort, the source's ideology is less important (as opposed to, say, "According to this organization, an anonymous informant said that he saw the bio subject doing cocaine," which generally wouldn't be worth inclusion if the only source were an advocacy group).

Thus, our use of these groups should be, as Gamaliel said, a case-by-case decision. Consistency doesn't mean "always include" or "always prohibit". Instead, we should consistently exercise sound judgment. JamesMLane t c 08:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Exclude (sort of)- unless dam good reason to include :) Seriously, these "media watch dogs" are barley a step above blogs, imho, and I would treat them the same. I understand that if we exclude "partisan" material, we aren't left with much, but so be it. --Tom (talk) 15:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Usually exclude unless the organization has carried out proper investigative journalism and has a good reputation for accuracy in investigations. Or unless the commentator is a notable and serious one in their own right. It seems to me that these "watchdogs" usually pick up information published elsewhere and that we can find better sources. But we may need to discuss on a case-by-case basis. I do not think the "if we include liberal then we must include conservative" is consistent with policy. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:27, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Neither. Obviously no blanket policy is possible. Note that a watchdog website may be the only source of relevant audio and video material. Xanthoxyl ^< 23:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
• Strong exclude. The mission-driven agenda of these watchdog organizations sometimes means that they cover (or uncover) controversy where there was none previously. A perfect example is here: Gretchen Carlson. This is a Fox News anchor who is completely uncontroversial except for mentions of her by a watchdog site (and by Jon Stewart, another example of a mission-driven watchdog). Inclusion of this data in a BLP can be harmful for no good reason.--Jarhed (talk) 08:23, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
• False choice - Although one should cast a wary eye on material sourced to advocacy journalists, and question even whether they are suitable (as a weight, relevancy, and NPOV matter - note the point above regarding making controversy where none exists) as sources to justify stating what their own opinions are, blanket exclusionary rules are dangerous. Reliability of sourcing depends not only on the publication but the author, the subject matter, the statement in question, and what it is being used to verify in which Wikipedia article. Further, one does not generate NPOV or BLP compliance by balancing a source deemed liberal (by contemporary American political standards) against one deemed conservatives. They are not true opposites of each other, they are merely two political factions in opposition, and it is not Wikipedia's place to try to ensure an even fight between national political factions.
• Strong Exclude - Either preclude extremist bias with a re-emphasis on existing Wikipedia criteria for admittance under BLP or surrender any pretense to composing an encyclopedic treatment. They are mutually exclusive. --JakeInJoisey (talk) 06:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

What about Fox News and MSNBC

Wouldn't this just lead to removals of extreme far right companies like Fox News as partisan advocacy? Jon Osterman (talk) 14:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The political tilt of a source is irrelevant -- left, right, 'far right', 'far left', 'extreme far right', 'extreme far left' -- none of that matters at all. What is relevant is whether the source has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Dlabtot (talk) 17:41, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Times identified as "unreliable"

This discussion is taking place over at the CRU hacking incident article. The editors are quibbling over the reliability of the Times of London. As usual, an uninvolved administrator would go a long way towards toning down the rhetoric.

Just read this discussion and the one below and it was interesting as I just recently had another editor lambast me for rejecting a particular Times article as a source. The reason for my rejection of it was that it was reporting on a court case, and the actual public court documents showed the Times article to be inaccurate. A generally reliable source was clearly not reliable. In another case an editor wanted to use a peer-reviewed article as a source for information outside of the expertise of the author (and the main topic of the article). The article had a number of clear errors that one might expect peer-review to pick up on, but since they were a minor part of the introductory section and outside the area of expertise of the journal it's not surprising they weren't. I come across this type of thing again and again, where ostensibly reliable sources can, using (more) reliable and verifiable sources, be shown to be unreliable on certain facts. I suspect it's ridiculously common with news media these days. While mechanisms are in place to deal with this kind of situation (primarily consensus) it's a cumbersome process and I feel it would be beneficial if wikipedia policies and guidelines more explicitly dealt with this kind of situation - even if just to give guidelines on how to deal with it. --Insider201283 (talk) 21:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Please note that Insider201283 is also challenging a direct quote out of the Western Journal of Communication because it cites a paper he doesn't like and saying anti-MLM comments out of Wiley books are not reliable while pro-ones are. He also tried to claim the paper in question was not scholarly and then tried to back track and then tried to again claim it was not scholarly.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Bruce, your constant inappropriate and usually misleading harassment is really starting to cross the line.--Insider201283 (talk) 08:22, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Insider201283, it is not harassment to point out based on your own talk page this seems to be latest in a long history of COI issues regarding either specific MLMs or MLMs in general.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

By "American standards, all British newspapers are tabloids because they don’t distinguish between what is true and what they make up."[81][82] These sources meet Wikipedia:SPS requirements. They relate specifically to The Sunday Times, also a News International publication, with separate editorial policy, but rather confusingly sharing the TimesOnline website with the daily. Just because something is in a formerly respectable British newspaper, that doesn't mean it meets verifiability standards. We also have to consider the writer, and some of them have a very questionable track record. As always, research and cross checking with other reliable sources is needed to assess individual statements. . dave souza, talk 10:12, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

When the now Conservative party education spokesman, Michael Gove, was asked to defend a complete hatchet job he wrote about a prominent Conservative figure in 2000, he said, "I wrote those words when I was a columnist for the Times and I was paid to entertain… I was paid to entertain and the column was designed to amuse and to provoke."[83] (I heard the interview on the BBC myself, that blog is just the first transcript I found) --Nigelj (talk) 21:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

And your point about an editorial columnist being what? This was not from the "news": “Move over Jim Davidson, there’s an even more high-profile comedian backing the Tories. Let’s give a big welcome to the king of the one-liners, self-made millionair