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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 August 30

Contents 1 August 31 1.1 Forgotten magic in Harry Potter 1.2 Chicago - Illegal download to support a hacker? 1.3 Dangerous dogs 1.4 Strange Copyright Warning ! 1.5 Tersa sphinx caterpillar 2 September 2 2.1 Wieboldt's Christmas ornament 2.2 What are strange dry circles on the eye called? 2.3 Is self-advertisement appropriate in article? 3 September 3 3.1 Weekend vs Weekday weddings 3.2 Firing clay pottery in a charcoal BBQ grill 3.3 Hanging things from a plastered ceiling 3.4 wheels 3.5 Lucy Page Mercer Rutherfurd 3.6 Wrong information taught in grammar school? 4 September 4 4.1 Who is J. E. Hoover? 4.2 Help Required on Humanitarian Ground

August 31

Forgotten magic in Harry Potter

Perhaps I've missed a reference to it, but was it ever explained why Ron Weasley has to suffer with second hand clothes, books, etc. when the parents are well-trained wizards who have no trouble conjuring up and flicking things here and there and everywhere...why can't robes be extended instead of remaining too short and why does Ron need to wear some ridiculous, old gown to the Yule Ball -- why can't they just transfigure it into a nice new one? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 02:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

because it was important to JK Rowling to maintain conventional British class distinctions?

well, never mind that. to the extent that one can make sense out of Rowling's universe, magic doesn't seem to be able to create stuff out of whole cloth. all the magic I can think of in the books (and I haven't read all of them) seems to focus energy to manipulate or destroy already extant materials. that, of course, doesn't really answer the question. for instance, why couldn't Mama Weasley put a spell on a loom so that it was always pouring out fabric, so long as you fed it thread? she'd have plenty of material then to make new clothing. or even more curious, how come the family is so poor when Papa Weasley apparently has a stable, decent, white-collar job at the Ministry of Magic? Either the MoM pays like crap, or Papa is supporting a mistress or three on the side. Probably best not to delve too deeply into the dark underbelly of the Weasley household. --Ludwigs2 03:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

For the Yule Ball, it says that bushes were 'conjured' for the front (where they meet Igor + Severus talking and Fleur kissing her boyfriend). DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ignoring the "don't look too closely" aspect for a second to note that, on at least one occasion, Dumbledore 'draws up' a chair in midair to sit on. I suppose, in principle, it could have been magicked from elsewhere, but that didn't seem to be the implication. 128.232.131.58 (talk) 04:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

"Draw up a chair" is a common phrase meaning simply to pull a chair for where it is now, to where you would like it to be. ("Draw up a chair and join us at the table.") Dumbledore, being a mighty wizard, doesn't do anything so mundane as to put it on the floor, of course. APL (talk) 04:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Or did you mean he did that in a film? I don't remember the scene from either the books or the film, so I was just guessing there. APL (talk) 04:11, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it happens in the film, but there's at least one occasion in the fifth book where he literally conjures an armchair out of nowhere. It's obviously never explained whether he created it from nothing or transported it in from elsewhere. ~ mazca ^talk 09:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think stuff like that is ever explained. (These sorts of logic problems are often common in stories with magic. On a grander scale, why isn't Dumbledore preventing earthquakes and such?)

In fact, the whole economics of the "wizard world" are left something of a mystery. APL (talk) 04:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, the books tend to contain enough detail and backstory so that the events of the storyline make internal sense, but certainly if you ever think too hard about the scale and general operation of the wizard world as a whole there are substantial inconsistencies and plot holes all over the place. Somehow I doubt books targeted at younger audiences would do so well if they contained substantial discussion of economics.... :) ~ mazca ^talk 09:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Or indeed any fiction. See Suspension of disbelief. Jørgen (talk) 11:29, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Ha! This reads exactly like a typical discussion about replicators on Star Trek! Adam Bishop (talk) 13:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You shouldn't expect too much from Harry Potter, isn't it actually meant for kids ? I wonder why intelligent people even read it when Stephen King does exist... Jon Ascton  (talk) 15:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Heresy. Please read a book before you decide to write an offtopic slam like this about it. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Are we supposed to believe Stephen King is for intelligent people? Adam Bishop (talk) 12:08, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

"There is legislation about what you can conjure and what you can't. Something that you conjure out of thin air will not last. This is a rule I set down for myself early on." J. K. Rowling. There are some fairly explicit rules governing magic in the books, discussed a little here. I'm sure we got a few throw-away remarks and discussion in some of the later books, like when they realise the food at school is prepared by house-elves, laid out on tables in the kitchen, then magicked upstairs: you can improve and, to some extent, increase, but you can't create in a lasting way.

As to the Weasleys, Mr Weasley is a low-ranking civil servant, a position traditionally with relatively low pay in exchange for security and a decent pension. They have 7 children, all of whom were homeschooled before going to Hogwarts. That's going to strain any paycheck (hence Malfoy's snide remarks), as well as leaving Mrs Weasley with little time to make things and improve things herself. The only time I could see her having time is during the first 4 books, when she only has Ginny at home, and the Order of the Phoenix hasn't restarted. But she'd probably have to learn how, as we see when she keeps referring to her books while doing various jobs around the house.

Which takes us to transfiguration and charms. It is probably the case that wizards can improve things such as clothes, either by applying a glamour or actually changing them. We see Ron try to improve his dress robes, but he doesn't even manage to trim the lace off neatly. Neat spell work takes skill and practice; see Tonks trying to use spells to tidy and clean. We are shown, both subtlely and less-so, that most wizards are not terribly good at the sort of useful spells they need. For example, see the wands preloaded with defensive spells the twins sell to the Ministry! But really, that's like muggle society. Pancakes are cheap and easy to make, but every Shrove Tuesday I see pancake mix for sale. Worse, this year I saw pre-made pancakes for sale, with instructions to heat them up in a frying pan. How can that make economic sense, when anyone can make pancakes from egg, milk and flour? But people buy them. So, clothes probably can be mended, stretched and improved by magic, but most wizards are rubbish at it. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 15:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has articles on the MacGuffin and Deus ex machina literary devices of which to my mind Joanne Rowling shows her unashamed mastery when she crafts the Harry Potter fantasies. For an opposing view, [1] is a critic who writes about "Harry Potter and the Excrucius MacGuffins". The Deus ex machina device has also been noted in "Harry Potter and the Deus Ex Machina: An Extraordinarily Long Blog Post" [2] and in a review at amazon.com that complains: ...Rowling falls back on a few too-worn literary devices... I found this book to be far too full of easy short cuts and simplistic cliches to give it five stars. Far too many times, Harry and his friends were "mysteriously" saved at the last minute...For some reason, the villain, no matter how vicious he has been throughout the story, always conveniently waits to attack until the hero's had plenty of time to get all the answers he needs to defeat the bad guy. The only change Rowling makes to this shopworn device is that she does it via magical means. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:27, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, how does this relate to the question or my answer (which you indented as a reply to)? You are talking about plot, and the question and this answer are about the fictional universe and the rules it operates under. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 18:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I apologise for my clumsy indent. I intended to continue the previous thread in which mazca mentioned plot consistencies. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 19:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmm.. That is a good interview. I wonder what she means by "Legislation". I have to say, I'd be more than a little irritated if I was capable of creating wealth from thin air and the government prevented me from doing so. The wizards could be ushering in a new era of prosperity for all mankind if not for that 'legislation'.

Perhaps that's not what she meant. APL (talk) 19:45, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

If wizards could create wealth from thin air, then the inevitable result I would foresee would be hyperinflation, not prosperity. Googlemeister (talk) 15:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, Rowling clearly believes "As much money and life as you could want! The two things most human beings would choose above all - the trouble is, humans do have a knack of choosing precisely those things which are worst for them." (Dumbledore, Philosopher's Stone, chapter 17).

Incidentally, I've found the reference I was looking for from the books:

"Your mother can’t produce food out of thin air," said Hermione. "No one can. Food is the first of the five Principal Exceptions to Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfigur-"

"Oh, speak English, can’t you?" Ron said, prising a fish bone out from between his teeth.

"It’s impossible to make good food out of nothing! You can summon it if you know where it is, you can transform it, you can increase the quantity if you’ve already got some-"

(Deathly Hallows, chapter 14). 86.161.108.172 (talk) 19:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Googlemeister, I think you've confused "wealth" for "money". They're not interchangeable concepts. "Hyperinflation" is what happens when you increase the money supply without increasing the total wealth. APL (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Possibly, but it would be quite a challenge to determine a medium of wealth that would not be subject to inflation if it could appear out of thin air (except maybe air if conjuring items out of thin air uses up said air). Googlemeister (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

None of the wizards in those books pay taxes yet the ministry of magic has a lot of money.--178.167.247.73 (talk) 22:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

They have elves making millions of toys for Santa, who gets a wholesale discount. Christmas sales supply the ministry their funds. Googlemeister (talk) 16:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Where in the books does it say there are no taxes? We never see anyone pay taxes, but that's pretty normal in any non-tax-based story. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 18:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. By the same false reasoning, one could conclude that War and Peace and Gone With the Wind were apparently set on some extraterrestrial planet inhabited by aliens, because none of the characters ever needed to urinate. Spooky. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Chicago - Illegal download to support a hacker?

I'd really like a copy of "Chicago" by Chrissie Hynde, David Gilmour, et al which they performed in support of alleged hacker Gary McKinnon. The problem is that I live in the US. iTunes and Amazon both carry it in their UK stores but not their US stores. So, do I have to go through a proxy server or some other method of sneakiness to buy a song to support an alleged hacker? Seems rather ironic... Dismas|^(talk) 12:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you know that you can legally listen to the song[3] on YouTube? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I've heard it. I want a copy though for when I'm not on the net with YouTube access. Dismas|^(talk) 15:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

VideoDownloader is your friend. -- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 16:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Dangerous dogs

If someone were to cross breed 2 dogs which are considered "dangerous" in the UK (e.g. a dogo argentino and a pit bull) in some other country could you then import one of the offspring into the UK? --212.120.246.77 (talk) 13:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 isn't strictly restricted by breed and has a fair bit of wiggle room in the phrase "being a type appearing to him to be bred for fighting or to have the characteristics of a type bred for that purpose." If, in the eyes of whoever was making the decision, the dog had substantially the characteristics of one of those banned dogs then it would probably be treated in the same way. ~ mazca ^talk 13:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Dogo what and pit bull ? I thought Rottweiler is the deadliest thing ?  Jon Ascton  (talk) 14:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Dogo Argentino, another large and potentially aggressive dog that sometimes gets bred for fighting. Rottweilers have something of a bad reputation but it's exaggerated in peoples' minds by some appearances in films - for quite some time the American Pit Bull has been the most notorious as far as dogs go, they're the ones most often involved in human attacks. ~ mazca ^talk 14:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a table copied and pasted from List of people killed by dogs in the United States:

Dog Bite-related Fatalities in the United States

Year	Total	# Most fatal attacks by	# Second-most fatal attacks by
2005	28	Pit bull-type (17)	Rottweiler (5)
2006	29	Pit bull-type (15)	Rottweiler (8)
2007	34	Pit bull-type (18)	Rottweiler (4)
2008	23	Pit bull-type (15)	Husky (3)
2009	30	Pit bull-type (14)	Rottweiler (4)

To be "fair" to the pit bulls, I don't have any data at hand on the respective populations of these dogs, so that some sort of fatalities-per-American-dog ratio could be observed. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Tangential to the question, but a cross between dangerous breeds might not be as dangerous as either breed separately. Rottweilers, for example, are dangerous because they are very aggressive. Pit bulls are less aggressive, but they are very dominant (i.e., can easily be provoked to attack if annoyed) and once they attack, very difficult to make stop. A cross between them would probably be less aggressive than a Rottweiler and less "dogged" than a pit bull. Hard to say. Looie496 (talk) 22:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I just heard Warwick Estevam Kerr clear his throat. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

The only stats I could find for the UK are that there were 4 fatalaties in 2008[4]. The UK population is very roughly one fifth of the USA, so we're not too far behind. More US dog bite stats are here[5] Alansplodge (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Strange Copyright Warning !

On all books we have the usual copyright warning like "...not to be copied by any means mechanical, electronic, photostating..." etc etc we almost always see, but one book I read had the term psychic in addition ! Some new copyright law or publicity stunt ?  Jon Ascton  (talk) 15:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Which book? probably the publisher/author indulging in a little good-natured humor. writers are people too, you know. --Ludwigs2 15:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

(EC) It would be interesting (and possibly helfpul towards answering) to know the book in question, Jon. Without any further details, my guesses (as a long-ex-publishing professional) would be that (a) the author seriously believes in this possibility and insisted on its inclusion, and the publishers have indulged him/her; (b) it's, as you say, a potential hook for publicity (and if so is to a limited extent demonstrably working); (c) it's an in-house joke connected to the particular book or author; or (d) someone has actually tried (hopefully unsuccessfully) to deny plagiarism or copyright violation of this or another publisher's material on grounds involving psychic transmission and the lawyers think it's worth including the additional injunction to head off irksome future attempts. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The publisher is Indian. Blaft, a Madras based newly emerged private company. The book is an english translation of a hindi crime writer's hindi hold-up story. This is the only book I have that Blaft has published, the same warning will be there on other books published by Blaft also, probably.

Blaft is a self-admitted hindi pulp fiction outlet, with an alien as their logo [6], featuring such nobel-worthy works as "Kumari Loves a Monster" and "when this key sketch gets real tongue is fork hen is cock when this key sketch gets real my baby eagle's dream comes true". I think a tounge-in-cheek warning about psychic copyrights would be very appealing to their clientele.

I took a quick glance at one of their books (moonward) to see if there was a publisher's plate. there wasn't, but it did leave me wondering why an English-language graphic novel was being handled by a minor Hindi publisher translation, gotcha, and also why anyone would make a graphic novel about a winged mechanical turtle-snail in the first place. --Ludwigs2 17:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

From a purely legal perspective, I'm not sure psychic reproduction would fall under at least US copyright law, which requires that the information be fixed in a tangible medium. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think I've seen the word "psychic" used (in some rare circumstances) not to refer to supernatural powers, but to any activity of the mind. So it might be a botched translation, where the intent was that you're not allowed to memorize the book (though I doubt the author has a right to prohibit that). Maybe they think that otherwise it would be legal to "launder" intellectual property by memorizing it, bit-by-bit, and then copying it down. Paul (Stansifer) 05:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Though I can't recall a specific example, as an occasional cataloguer in my library I have seen in a number of books plays on the copyright page that add little jokes like this. I imagine this is the case here. Aaronite (talk) 04:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Copyright warnings have no legal meaning in any case. Everything forbidden by copyright law (duplication, public performance, etc.) is forbidden even in the absence of any copyright notice at all, and copyright owners don't have the right to impose additional restrictions. -- BenRG (talk) 05:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Tersa sphinx caterpillar

I found a Tersa sphinx caterpillar on my lawn today, after sourcing it's identity through wikimedia my neighbour also found one. They are habitual to America and I would like to know how and why they have appeared in Cheshire. Neither myself or my neighbour have ever seen anything like it before. Are they in any way hazardous? and have they been found anywhere else in the uk?

I would be gratefull for any assistance in answering my questions.

Regards

Gaynor Bowerbank —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.127.165 (talk) 19:41, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

You might try directing this to the Natural History Museum. They would be very interested in this. [7]. Take lots of photos so that you can upload them to Wikimedia Commons. What do they taste like? Do not forget to mention Wikipedia to them. --Aspro (talk) 00:12, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Get right in close, those caterpillars have tiny ears! Adam Bishop (talk) 02:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

You might also consider contacting a local group who might have someone to come and look at the little rascal. For example Lancashire and Cheshire Fauna group, who have a website with contacts for moths and butterflies. Richard Avery (talk) 07:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 September 1

September 2

Wieboldt's Christmas ornament

01:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)Woodguy 44 (talk)I read your article about Wieboldt's Department stores in Chicago. I grew up in Chicago near their store on 63rd. st. just east of Halstead. Like the article said Wieboldt's sponsered a radio show between Thangsgiving and Christmas called " The Cinamon Bear" and was about his quest to get back the star that belonged on top of his Christmas tree. I remember going to Wieboldt's to see Santa Claus and they gave us a silver star ornament that could be hung on your Christmas tree. It was made from shinny metal foil and was folded so that when opened it had like 6 fins with a string at the top that you could hang it on your Christmas Tree. Does anybody know what I'm referring to and possibly where I could find one of these stars? Thanks, Woodguy 44

Have you tried eBay? I did a google search, and couldn't find anything about the star for sale anywhere (though LOTS of sites recount the story of the Cinnamon Bear). However, eBay is usually pretty good for people shopping for collectables. --Jayron32 02:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

What are strange dry circles on the eye called?

I know the reference desk has a policy against medical questions, but this is just curiosity, not medical advice. I was wondering if someone could tell me what dried circles of skin on the eyelid are called, like this: http://i.imgur.com/oQInP.jpg . The Goggles Do Nothing (talk) 03:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks like a small area of Keratoderma, or hardened skin. Some of these conditions are horrifyingly disfiguring, and other times rather innocuous. --Jayron32 03:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Is self-advertisement appropriate in article?

Hello, I cannot find online documentation in Wiki to answer my question.

Is self-advertisement appropriate in an article? Specifically, I found an article on a game which is hundreds of years old, and at the bottom of the article a manufacturer has noted that the game is available for purchase through them.

Is that kind of self-advertisement, in an article about a centuries-old game, allowed? Or is it against Wiki policy to include such self-advertisement?

What is the Wiki policy on this?

I can give more specific details re the above case, but I think the general description of this problem, my question, is probably good enough. Please respond.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.26.209.145 (talk) 14:44, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It is against policy and should be removed. Marnanel (talk) 14:45, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I am not a Wiki author or contributor. Is there a procedure to follow to properly report the policy violation so the self-advertisement is reviewed for removal? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.26.209.145 (talk) 15:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC) You can remove it by clicking "edit" in the header. If you prefer, tell us the name of the page and one of us will remove it. Marnanel (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC) Yes, please remove it for me, thank you. page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanorona External links - NestorGames sells a portable version of Fanorona. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 15:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. The same user made another link in another game article, saying the manufacturing company "re-edited" (republished) the partcular game this year. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epaminondas_(game)&diff=363790337&oldid=320648958 Doesn't this also amount to self-promotion/advertising? (If so could you also remove. Thank you.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 22:05, 2 September 2010 (UTC) Here is the specific text - "It has been re-edited in 2010 by NestorGames." NestorGames is a commercial website selling the game for profit - http://www.nestorgames.com/ and http://www.nestorgames.com/epaminondas_detail.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 05:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

It looks like this has been resolved. In the future, the correct place to report problems of this nature is at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Thanks for your vigilance in this regard. --Jayron32 05:50, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Jayron, please explain what resolution? Also please read above where I inquired what is proper procedure, and the answer I received. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihardlythinkso (talk • contribs) 23:26, 3 September 2010 (UTC) Please read this entire entry. There are two reported items. The second item is unresolved. Here it is repeated below.

The same user made another link in another game article, saying the manufacturing company "re-edited" (republished) the partcular game this year. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epaminondas Here is the specific text - "It has been re-edited in 2010 by NestorGames." NestorGames is a commercial website selling the game for profit - http://www.nestorgames.com/ and http://www.nestorgames.com/epaminondas_detail.html Doesn't this also amount to self-promotion/advertising? (If so could you also remove. Thank you.)

This is the wrong forum for this. I cannot say that any plainer. People who patrol this message board do not, as a matter of course, usually deal with these issues. Wikipedia has a forum which is expressly for dealing with this problem. It is called Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. If you are uncomfortable with fixing the problem yourself, you need to start a thread at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard, not here. This board is for answering questions using information from Wikipedia articles. If you are having problems with somebody spamming articles, go to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. --Jayron32 02:58, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

September 3

Weekend vs Weekday weddings

I'm living in Northern Ireland, but originally from Canada. I looked at Wedding and White Wedding but I didn't see this in either.

Recently a student told me he had done less than usual work this week because a friend had gotten married on Monday. Monday???? He was surprised at my shock. He told me that here all or most weddings happen on weekdays! Is this really true? In North America, it is very strange for someone to get married on a weekday. In what areas of the Western world is a weekday wedding normal? Is it correlated with religiosity? moink (talk) 08:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

All eight of the weddings I went to last year in Australia were on weekends, most of them on Saturdays. I haven't heard of any weddings other than very small registry-only weddings happening on weekdays. Those are the ones where the couple and a few friends go to the registry office and get married and then they have dinner together. Steewi (talk) 09:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Saturday wedding is usually just for the convenience of the guests. I don't know of any religious reason (here in northern England) against a weekday wedding, and I have attended a wedding held as part of a normal Sunday religious service. These days, people just do what seems convenient, and if the guests can be free on weekdays, then why not? However, employers tend to be less "understanding" about allowing a day off for a wedding than they would be for a funeral. Dbfirs 09:03, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Steewi's observations of the Australian wedding scene. HiLo48 (talk) 09:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The question about religiosity was because when I told the student most people married on the weekend where I come from, he replied "Churches are very busy places on weekends" which is not true in my experience of a tiny, sparsely-attended church, but may be true in a country where a church may traditionally be a central gathering place for a community. moink (talk) 09:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Haven't heard of a weekday wedding either - they are normally held on Saturdays here in Slovenia, to allow for the hangover next day :) Incidentally, I was equally surprised to hear that in the US, presidential elections are held on Tuesdays. That just strikes me as completely unpractical, and as far as I can tell, most countries vote on Sundays. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Elections in the UK are held on Thursdays. See also Election Day (politics). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

It is cheaper and as venue hire and catering etc., cost so much, it makes a big difference for low income families. Also, everybody it seems to me, likes an excuse for a day off work. After all, aren't they so fond of saying, “we work for you in order to live, rather than live in order to work for you”.--Aspro (talk) 09:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I tend to think that the live to work/work to live conundrum is not just applicable to low income people but equally applicable to people at all income levels. Bus stop (talk) 12:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Some good friends of mine got married on a Friday in the UK. They certainly weren't low income and it was a big church wedding. I think they just did it to be different. I resented having to take the day off work, but I did it anyway. This is the only time I've ever come across a wedding that didn't take place on a Saturday. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 09:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Something else I forgot to mention is that quite a few shift workers find it easier to get time off during the week. Here is a typical example: [8]--Aspro (talk) 10:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

(This is the 2nd time in as many days that I've had occasion to refer to my wedding in a Russian Orthodox Church, having never previously mentioned it in my 6-odd years here. Odd.) My fiancee and I very much wanted our wedding to be on a Saturday, for all sorts of practical reasons. But the priest wouldn't allow it, because of some religious feast that day, and the only other available day was the following day, the Sunday. So Sunday it was. In about 6 weeks I'm going to a wedding on a Wednesday. The bride chose the anniversary of her mother's death, which this year happens to fall on a Wednesday. That will be a first for me. And probably a last. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The only weekday wedding I have been to was at a judge's office. All church weddings have been on Saturday or Sunday, so that nearby guests could attend without taking a day off work. A few weddings, such as those involving the very rich, involve transporting family and friends to some vacation destination; then everyone can consider it a vacation and take a few days off, so the time of week makes little difference. Edison (talk) 14:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

(after ec)My second wedding took place on a Friday because we wanted to have a weekend away. My third wedding took place on a Wednesday, because it was the day before my husband's place of work moved to a new building, and all leave had been cancelled for six weeks. In the UK you can get married any day, between the hours of 9 and 5. (Now that's the bit that sucks - imagine how lovely a summer evening wedding could be...) Actually, what does surprise me is that your friend got married on a Bank Holiday, unless it's not a Bank Holiday in NI. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to a wedding today (a Friday), and mine's on a Friday too, it's not uncommon at all, at least in Canada (or maybe just Ontario...or maybe just around here). They are usually on Saturdays though. I know it's slightly cheaper to book a wedding venue on a Friday, because more people want one for a Saturday. If you just get married at city hall you can do that any day. I don't recall seeing a fancy wedding on any other day, except there was once a wedding on a Sunday at the Portuguese church down the street...I assume that was because that church has like 4 weddings every Saturday. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:20, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

In the Church of England, we don't do weddings on Sunday - or at least I've never heard of it. A friend's church wedding a few weeks ago was on a Friday and the reception was on Saturday. Alansplodge (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I had a great big wedding on a Thursday -- we picked the date and it just happened to be a weekday; it sure was a lot easier to coordinate everything for a day when none of the service providers had competing weddings. (We started the planning in May for an August wedding. The reactions were consistent: "What? So soon? No way! Oh wait, a Thursday? Great!" --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 17:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

UK here too, and I've been to a couple of Friday weddings. Saturdays being peak wedding days, hotels are inclined to offer better deals for the reception if you're prepared to accept a weekday when they wouldn't normally get such an event, and it's easier to arrange at relatively short notice, whereas Saturdays can be booked up a year in advance, or even more. Weddings in the middle of the working week may make it hard for some guests to attend, so a Friday wedding and a long weekend seem to be a reasonably popular compromise. This article states that you can get married in a properly licensed place on any day of the week, including Sundays and Bank and Public holidays and at any time between 8am & 6pm (subject to being able to arrange the attendance of a registrar to marry you), but points out that it is difficult to arrange a Sunday wedding in church because of the regular services scheduled on that day. Karenjc 18:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Firing clay pottery in a charcoal BBQ grill

Are there any reasons this would likely not succeed in firing the clay properly? It's just a standard grill like the red one in the picture at Weber-Stephen Products Co.. Thanks. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 13:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Those grills can get up to about 260 degrees C, while Pottery needs around 1000 degrees. --Sean 14:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The bottom end of firing temperatures (very low-fire) that will produce a glaze is 1112°F (605°C) to 1556°F (850°C)[9]. A kettle BBQ might get up to 600°F if you really push it, but you'll ruin the grill if it gets much hotter than that - the finish will be ruined at least, and the aluminum parts will melt around 1220°F. High-fired temperatures approach the melting point of steel around 2500°. You will also have severe issues with temperature control and consistency, especially since you'll have to open it up all the time to shovel in more charcoal. You need a kiln of some sort, with interior materials that can withstand the heat and retain it to provide an even heat distribution, preferably after you've pre-heated it to keep from having to open once you've put in the ware. Acroterion _(talk) 14:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I see. Well, I just found out the local hobby shop sells oven-bake clay and my stuff will only be for display, so I guess I won't need a kiln anyway. Thanks. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 15:00, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Hanging things from a plastered ceiling

My garage is small but has a high ceiling, and I'd like to put up a hanging rack for my bike. Trouble is, the previous tenant had the ceiling plastered. I assume there must be wooden beams above that, holding up my lounge floor, but I don't know exactly where. Is there anything I can do to find out, other than drilling randomly into the plaster until I hit one? My landlord is fine with me doing the work, but it's at my risk if I wreck the house. He never comes over and didn't know the plastering had been done until I told him. 86.138.73.152 (talk) 14:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

We have an article on everything, including Stud finders. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! 86.138.73.152 (talk) 14:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I never heard of a stud finder with a RADAR system in it. Is that for real? Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Whatever you do, don't use Toggle bolts, plastic expansion anchors or those screw-in drywall anchors - it sounds like you already know that. Also, don't use nails - nails want to be loaded in shear - perpendicular to their length), not in withdrawal, or drywall screws (flimsy). Heavy decking screws would work. Often you can get a good sense of a joist location and direction from tapping gently with a hammer and listening. The next joist will be about 16" over. If you miss with a screw, some Spackle usually is sufficient to fill a screw hole, especially if it's way up there. Acroterion _(talk) 14:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

wheels

can i put 195/55/r15 wheels from a citreon xsara onto my volvo s40 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.114.7.238 (talk) 16:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Which version and engine number size is the S40? --Ouro (blah blah) 16:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing stops you putting any wheels on your Volvo. You may of course compromise the handling, braking etc. which would affect your safety. Also, if the wheels are a drastically different size from the originals, your speedometer and mileage readings will be affected. One thing to consider is whether the spacing of the nuts on the two sets of wheels are the same (otherwise you physically wouldn't be able to line up the holes in your Xsara wheels with the screw thread things on the wheel hub of the Volvo). Most important question, what is the current size of the wheels on your Volvo, and what are the speed ratings of the different sets of tyres? If you need help our article on Tire code should let you know what to look for. What are the recommended wheel and tyre sizes for the Volvo (in the owner's manual)? Without this info we're just guessing. Zunaid 19:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Different car manufacturers have different setups to how wheels are secured and not all are compatible. I had a Nissan with a dubious spare-wheel that was on the wrong 'rim' and therefore would not fit my car (e.g. it had 4 holes where my nissan had 5 - if memory serves). A quick search online suggests (from the images) that Volvo wheels have 5 bolts in their 'bolt circle' and Citroen 4 bolts (link http://www.alloywheelspin.co.uk/volvo-alloys-21-c.asp and http://www.alloywheelspin.co.uk/citroen-alloy-wheels-26-c.asp) i'm not sure whether that precludes them being fitted (it may be that they align but one hole isn't filled but your best bet is to call a local garage and ask. ny156uk (talk) 22:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

This page might be of use http://www.carlsalter.com/wheel_fitments.html - it says for Citroen Xsara it is 4 x 108 (PCD) 15-20 offset and 65.1 bore - whereas the Volvo S40 is 4 x 114 (PCD) 35-42 offset and 67.1 bore ny156uk (talk) 23:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Lucy Page Mercer Rutherfurd

Why was she buried in Tranquility Cemetery? "Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd died of leukemia in New York City in 1948 at the age of 57. She was interred in Tranquility Cemetery in the Tranquility section of Green Township, New Jersey".

Residents of Great Meadows New Jersey (88 years old and such) remember the special train and train car that would pass on the Lehigh and Hudson River railroad to Allamuchy. FDR going to see a friend. So, her bio says she lived in South Carolina, died in New York,,,what is the New Jersey connection here...Why no mention of the Estate in Tranquility or Allimuchly? She was meeting FDR at the New Jersey estate and what was the connection. Her family was from Virginia so why not be buried in Virginia if not South Carolina? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.150.146 (talk) 20:51, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Wrong information taught in grammar school?

Hey all. I understand that sometimes you might tell children things that are simplifications or just wrong because it would take too long to explain otherwise, or the teacher doesn't understand it him/herself. I remember when I was in elementary school they told me pi=3.14, e=2.7 and people thought the world was flat in Columbus' day. But why do people also tell students things that are untrue, but not simplifications? {EDIT] OK, I thought of a better example (you can see the original @). I remember in fifth grade we were taught that communism is all bad and evil, and its dogma advocates killing everyone who does not agree and forcing people to work on collectives and taking everyone's property so that the corrupt governers can be rich. This naturally brought up the question, then why did people support it and even vote for it? In high school, we learned that communism actually advocates creating a perfect society where the public owns everything and works for the good of society rather than for their own good. So this would answer the question of why it was appealing, but my teachers firmly denied that there was anything that could be appealing to anybody about communism. (PS: I didn't walk around thinking this until high school, of course, but a fair number of my peers did (and still do(!))) 99.13.222.181 (talk) 23:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC) PS I read your article Lie to children and I found it interesting but (and no offense!) not really satisfying.

Not a question as much as a prompt for debate. Wrong forum.

I think it's like the bit in A Few Good Men: Col. Nathan R. Jessep: You want answers? Lt. Daniel Kaffee: I think I'm entitled. Col. Nathan R. Jessep: You want answers?! Lt. Daniel Kaffee: I want the truth! Col. Nathan R. Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Looie496 (talk) 00:07, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Well, a very cynical view is to say that the role of public school in the United States, for example, is primarily to try and teach people to be "ideal Americans" in a very broad sense, and during the Cold War in particular this involved teaching things about the nastiness of Communists. One might, as well, question the quality of your teachers. Did they have a good reason for disliking it, or were they just going off of what they had been taught? One can't know about your particular situation, but if my American public school education was any indication, high quality teaching is not as common as we'd like it to be. (Though my teachers were not quite so blunt as what you are describing, in part because Communism was mostly a dead-letter question by that point.) If I were teaching elementary school, or high school, I would probably ideally want to show that the world is a pretty complicated place, full of grays rather than black-and-whites, but would that really work, would it resonate, would it get me in trouble? --Mr.98 (talk) 00:54, 4 September 2010 (UTC) The image about Communism in your mind seems to be rather glorified. Where in the world has it created perfect society ? Saying what it "advocates" is rather gullible - this was the way they brought up Nazism, which advocated a perfect society (by killing all the Jews). The promoters of fundamentalism Islam also sell this kind of crap - they can give you a perfect society by putting a forced end to alcoholism, homosexuality, teenage pregnancy and adultery etc. Beware the people who promise you a perfect society. When they taught you that " its dogma advocates killing everyone who does not agree and forcing people to work on collectives and taking everyone's property so that the corrupt governers can be rich" they, I think, were telling you the truth, a bitter truth. Please look at history - the people Stalin has put to death for not agreeing with him ( any unbiased historian will agree he has broken the Hitler's record !) . The kind of industrial scale atrocities they did in China - Great Leap Forward and all that bullshit. Now there are most gruesome killings going on in India by China-supported communist militants.  Jon Ascton  (talk) 02:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Jon, you are soapboxing. Please stop it. Marnanel (talk) 03:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC) He's right, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Whether he's right or wrong, he needs to stop. Marnanel (talk) 04:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC) How deliciously ironic. The OP asks: "So why do grownups think that little children need to have things simplified for them so they tell them that the world is black-and-white, and it's only later in life that these children find out that the world is really all sorts of shades of gray?" and you two go: "What? Gray? How can you say that, it's obviously black-and-white!" TomorrowTime (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Stalin killed around 6 million of his countrymen. The reality of communism was pretty much black-and-white to them. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Oh Bugs, are you even trying? Come on, just try to be a critical thinker here. Stalinism is not the same thing as Communism, and people don't vote in Communism because they want Stalinism. And yes, they have, in the past, voted in or otherwise been very enthusiastic about Communism. The OP is really saying, "why don't teachers tell us a balanced account?", which doesn't mean "Hooray for Communism!" either. It means, "Well, here is what people wanted out of Communism, here are the wrongs they thought it would redress (Tsar Nicholas weren't no saint!), but here are what the outcomes have been." A perfectly mature discussion, more mature than the one we are having on here, because of you and Jon being so knee-jerk and ridiculously dogmatic. (I've no desire to live in a Communist society, and I think historically the real deficits to its theory and practice are pretty clear, but that doesn't mean I can't understand why people wanted it, or agree that the wrongs of capitalism can be pretty egregious as well.) Just because you can see there are two sides to something doesn't mean you have to agree with both sides equally, and that's what's really at issue here. I'm surprised that both of you could so perfectly repeat the same old dogmas without being critical about them in the slightest. You'd be the worse kind of teacher for someone on this subject, because you would, like the teachers of the OP, give a badly reasoned dogma that, once the student learned to think for themselves, would probably send them in the other direction. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC) See Lies My Teacher Told Me Everard Proudfoot (talk) 02:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC) The first thing to realize is that the teacher may not even realize what they are saying is wrong. When teaching others, people repeat what they themselves taught, not knowing it's incorrect. A bunch of it is that we (sensibly) don't require a Math Ph.D. to teach Math to elementary school students, and more of it is due to the state of knowledge changing since teachers started teaching. (This will rarely affect core curricula, as teachers take refresher courses, but you'll see it in ancillary information which a teacher recalls from their schooling.) Another part of it is the natural credulousness of children. The teacher may know that pi isn't exactly 3.14, and may even use careful wording when the value is first introduced, but "In this class, we use 3.14 for pi", while not incorrect, may be a subtle distinction which is lost on a 12 year-old. In addition, after answering the same question a dozen times, the phrase gets shortened for convenience to "pi is 3.14". So even if the abbreviation is simply a convenience specifically for the class, after a long time using it, it gets drilled into the child's head as the absolute truth. Regarding communism - that one's pure propaganda, but a widely held one. See Red Scare and McCarthyism. There was actually a period of time in the US where saying *anything* good about Communism could get someone (especially a teacher) fired. Demonizing and dehumanizing "the enemy" is an old practice in conflicts, but has the unfortunate side effect of lasting long after the conflict is over. -- 174.21.233.249 (talk) 02:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC) What a can of worms this could open. I wonder where the OP got the idea that Lenin had been elected. I'll just stick with the way Will Rogers described what Communist Russia was like compared with the USA: "In Russia, they ain't got no income tax! But they ain't got no income!" And a corollary by Frank Zappa: "Communism doesn't work, because people like to own stuff." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Bugs, the OP never said that "Lenin had been elected". I know it's hard for you, but can you please stop lying to support your paranoid fantasies? DuncanHill (talk) 10:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC) What is need of useless things like income etc. when you are living in a heaven ?  Jon Ascton  (talk) 03:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Communist Russia was heaven? Think again, comrade. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:23, 4 September 2010 (UTC) Bugs, stop trolling. If you don't have anything to add other than "NUH-UH!", don't bother. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC) No, this is not going to be a trolling event where we get to superficially argue back and forth about whether communism was great or awful or really awful. I don't see a lot of real non-opinion based question being asked here. The book link is excellent though (even though I know nothing about that book, I've only heard about it). Shadowjams (talk) 04:44, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

September 4

Who is J. E. Hoover?

The only information I have on him is that he served in the pacific front during WWII. J. E. Hoover --Arima (talk) 05:30, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, that isn't the only information you have, is it? I googled for the set of names listed in that picture, and found them all at this list of 1940 Navy commanders, where his position is described as "Chief of Staff, Commander Aircraft, Battle Force", although his name is listed there as John H. Hoover. I'm pretty sure it's him because the other names in the picture are there up to and including the initials. This article says that he was a Rear Admiral and gives more information about what he did. Looie496 (talk) 06:41, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Help Required on Humanitarian Ground

I being a retired man, will be highly obliged if you could kindly arrange me to get some ONLINE DATA ENTRY or DATA EDITING or FORM FILLING JOBS etc. If yes pl. let me know, then I will come back with the details. V N Krishnaswamy, INDIA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.92.77.212 (talk) 08:47, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

[Deleted extraneous opening space to reformat your text to fit the page.] 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:11, 4 September 2010 (UTC)